News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by asmithmd1 on Sunday November 15, 2015 @09:38AM (#10569703)
In my mind he didn't address the fundamental reason why the wing visibly oscillates while most other structures that you trust your life to like buildings, bridges, and cars do not. Airplanes are designed with a 1.5 factor of safety

A factor of safety is applied to a design after every load the structure will be subjected to is calculated, they multiply by 1.5 to be sure the structure will be safe. 1.5 may sound conservative but it is the smallest factor of safety someone normally encounters, spacecraft and fighter jets might use 1.2 while cars often use 3; buildings and bridges use 5. Airplanes are used much closer to the strength limit of their materials so we see them flexing.

Of course everything deflects under load - my strength of materials instructor illustrated this by analyzing how much an anvil compresses when a fly lands on it; answer: less than can be measured.

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by cmsmith on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:42AM (#10570085)
Structural engineer here: Buildings and bridges do not use 5, give us a little credit

We mostly assume that materials are 90% as strong as they say they are, that the building weighs 1.2 times as much as it really does, and that stuff in the building weighs 1.6 times as much as it really does. The total factor of safety is something like 1.5.

The reason that buildings don't vibrate (noticably under service loads) is that people would get queasy, so we design things for stiffness as well as strength. Aircraft are more space and weight limited, and no one is sitting on the end of the wing, so the engineers mostly just care that everything will stay attached.

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by Asbostos on Sunday November 15, 2015 @09:49AM (#10569728)
Being close to failure isn't a requirement for visibly bending. For example, see wire rope or cloth. Anything very long and thin can flex a long way without much strain on any individual part of it.

Low FoS yes, but even if you doubled it to 3, you'd still see the wing tip moving - only half as much.

Truck trailers are also very soft in torsion. See an empty one go over a big bump and it'll visibly twist. Not close to failure, just not very stiff.

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by dalke on Sunday November 15, 2015 @01:43PM (#10570548)
Or a ship in heavy waves - https://youtu.be/oiqofDBsFL0?t=60 . But not close to failure.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by codingdave on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:31AM (#10570039)
But buildings and bridges do oscillate. Architects just try to keep it below the level of human perception because they know people would freak out. The fact that we do not often see them oscillate has more to do with design and psychology than physics.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by Dwolb on Sunday November 15, 2015 @10:34AM (#10569845)
My question would be, "What's 1?". I don't know if 1 is the mean, 1 standard deviation, 2 standard deviations, etc.

I'd be really worried if 1 was "A fully loaded plane of 180lbs adults with two checked bags of 50lbs each flying in clear blue skies with no wind."

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by sokoloff on Sunday November 15, 2015 @07:46PM (#10571976)
That will vary by aircraft certifying authority.

For the FAA part 23 certified aircraft, the basics are here (for Federal laws, these are written in fairly plain English, but you need to hop around a bit at times): http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?n=pt14.1.23#se14.1....

For FAA part 25 certified aircraft (transport category aircraft): http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5;node=14%3A1.0....

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by sound_of_basker on Sunday November 15, 2015 @10:51AM (#10569908)
Unless you have a background in solid mechanics, this is difficult to explain.

On the outset, there are different failures possible, tensile, warping, etc.

Under a load distribution, a structure would fail at some point depending on the intensity of the load. It could be tensile or due to bending moment. Call that L. Now, you would add flitches or increase say, the thickness of a plate to withstand upto 1.5L. That is a design with a 1.5 times factor of safety.

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by Dwolb on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:11AM (#10569967)
My question pertains to the testing load. If different industries structure their tests differently, it doesn't make much sense to compare safety factors.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by chiph on Sunday November 15, 2015 @10:41AM (#10569879)
"1" is what the plane would be expected to experience during normal operation, where that includes flying through a storm, crosswinds, etc. How did they determine this figure? By years and years of analyzing successful designs and crashes (not-so-successful designs).
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by maxerickson on Sunday November 15, 2015 @10:56AM (#10569925)
Just to add a word, it would be the maximum expected there, so would be for a plane loaded to the maximum takeoff weight doing the most aggressive maneuver in the worst weather (or really, most adverse external conditions).
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by Dwolb on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:13AM (#10569971)
Is this 'the maximum ever observed in a real setting'? Could it be 'the maximum inputs ever recorded on earth and then used in my calculation'?
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by RockyMcNuts on Monday November 16, 2015 @12:20PM (#10575644)
yeah...planes have a concept of maneuvering airspeed, where you can fully deflect control surfaces without damaging the aircraft. but higher than that you can cause structural damage. even below that if you don't just deflect but dynamically go back and forth just right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by drewkett on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:43AM (#10570088)
It's the maximum load you would expect to see in the life of the aircraft
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by Dwolb on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:51AM (#10570119)
Sorry about this, I'm struggling a bit. Isn't the "load observed over the life of an aircraft" just a statistical distribution? Therefore a maximum doesn't make a lot of sense. It would make more sense to talk about standard deviations away from the mean unless the maximum was "maximum ever recorded in our dataset"
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by dalke on Sunday November 15, 2015 @02:18PM (#10570688)
Suppose you have a bridge. You must design it so it can handle the maximum weight expected. You must not design it with a simple Gaussian distribution in mind.

For example, a small bridge in a seldom used road in the countryside might have a few cars per hour. That's a load of a couple of tons per car. But cars density isn't randomly distributed. If one is slow, then there might be a lineup of 4 cars in a row, and that's more likely then a simple calculation based on 1-(1-p)^4 where p is the single car density.

Then twice a day there's the school bus. And there's the occasional cattle truck, and semi, and anhydrous tanker. So you might have a school bus with a couple of heavy vehicles behind it, as a possible maximum design load.

The odds of this can't be described with a simple Gaussian, so standard deviations make no sense.

Of course, there's no need to go crazy overboard and design all bridges to handle a convoy of M1 Abrams tanks. That's why rural bridge might have a posted weight limit of, say, 10 tons, with only 1 truck allowed at a time. Even then, some people will push the limits, which is why there's a safety factor.

For example http://blogs.mcall.com/roadwarrior/2014/08/wehrs-mill-bridge... describes a wooden bridge which had a 10 ton limit, until some dumbass fuel tanker weighing 38.2 tons went through. Now the rated limit is 4 tons because of the structural damage.

So it's not "the maximum that was ever recorded in the dataset of all rural bridges" but "the maximum expected for this bridge", along with efforts to restrict higher loads.

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by maxerickson on Sunday November 15, 2015 @12:15PM (#10570197)
First, I'm not doing structural design, so maybe someone will wander by with a better answer. Anyway, it's probably overly simplistic, but passing the load test would involve surviving the maximum expected load with zero damage. Implying that lesser loads would also never do damage.

In reality, cyclic fatigue is also considered.

This seems like a nice discussion that shows the complexity:

http://www.coe.montana.edu/me/faculty/cairns/Introduction%20...

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by drewkett on Monday November 16, 2015 @12:06AM (#10572716)
Yea you've got it mostly right. It's based on a statistical distribution derived from actual flight data.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by WalterBright on Sunday November 15, 2015 @03:42PM (#10571089)
1 is the max load one would ever expect to see in service.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by WalterBright on Sunday November 15, 2015 @03:40PM (#10571080)
If a wing is too stiff, you get one kind of flutter, too soft, and you get another. The idea is to be midway between those two cases. Flutter (dynamic instability) will rip the wings off. An awful lot of design effort goes into avoiding flutter.

Blow on a stretched rubber band, and it'll vibrate, too.

Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by qbrass on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:19AM (#10569983)
If the wings were stiff, the forces that would normally deflect the wings would be transferred into the cabin.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by zwiteof on Sunday November 15, 2015 @12:00PM (#10570155)
No, the forces are transferred to the fuselage in any case. If they weren't, the wing wouldn't be bending relative to the cabin, it would just experience rigid body motion instead.
Re:Why Airplane Wings Oscillate in Turbulence by cmsmith on Sunday November 15, 2015 @11:05PM (#10572559)
Not quite true. As long as the frequency of the dynamic load isn't too slow relative to the natural period of the wing, then not all of that force has to be resisted by the wing connection. That's why wings are flexible, why we put shock absorbers in cars, and why flexible buildings can be designed for lower seismic loads.