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Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by fit2rule on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:37PM (#10548320)
The modern Austrian will be the first to tell you that Austria was the first victim of Nazi aggression .. and ignore the welcome that was put out by a majority of the Austrian populace for Hitler, but there really is a deeper truth that the reason they are telling you that Austria was a victim is that the de-Nazi'fication of Austria after the war required the then-growing generations to discard the culture of their parents, which did indeed welcome Nazi ideology with open arms. Austrians' have been programmed to think that their country was the first victim in the war - lest they perpetuate the ideologies that allowed such an easy victory for the Nazi's in the first place.

No Austrian wants to admit the long-standing cultural roots of imperialism and fascism that took hold of their country - and still reflect in its darker depths. Authoritarianism is still the mode of the day; group-think and the mob mind very much still grips the Austrian zeitgeist, as it has for centuries.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:57PM (#10548449)
> The modern Austrian will be the first to tell you that Austria was the first victim of Nazi aggression

Uh. That has not been the case for many years now. Austria has had this attitude right after the war but things have changed a lot in the last 60 years.

As someone who went through Austrian education I can tell you that Austria's view as it being a victim was controversially discussed throughout our history education and ultimately dismissed.

There are probably still some that think Austria was a victim in this, but I doubt that this would be the majority.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by fit2rule on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:33PM (#10548683)
I live in Austria, and I hear this line time and again. It has not faded at all.
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:39PM (#10548731)
Hear where exactly? I really would like to see some reference to that.

//EDIT: Just to be clear. I'm not saying there are not some people that believe that, but it has been taught differently in schools for a long time, Austria's official position for the last 30 years is that it was not a victim. If you talk to old people, sure, but the last two generations? I doubt it.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by jacquesm on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:16PM (#10548975)
From the relevant wikipedia page:

"After its convention in early 2011 mid-way between general elections, the FPÖ had a support in opinion polls of around 24-29%—at par with the SPÖ and ÖVP, and above the BZÖ. Among people under 30 years of age, the FPÖ had the support of 42%.[61][62] In June 2015 the main part of the federal party section of Salzburg split of and formed the Free Party Salzburg. [63]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria

Presumably a fair chunk of those voters would describe the situation as the GP quoted. Not hard to believe at all.

(And 'under 30' is definitely not 'old people')

Painting yourself as the victim is a tried and true strategy of nationalist parties. After all, someone else has to be blamed for whatever is wrong it would not do to seek fault with yourself. I'm sure they were taught different in school but that won't stop people to believe whatever it is that supports their desired outcomes most, even if that goes contrary to their education.

I don't like the generalization to all Austrians, that makes absolutely no sense. But some Austrians, quite probably and with 30% voting for right wing nationalists quite a few of those would be under 30.

We have a similar dumb thing going on here in NL with a guy called Wilders. He's managed to enlist the young people with his brand of scapegoating and populism and most of what those people believe would leave a student of the run-up to WWII horrified. That doesn't mean all Dutch people are Wilders followers or fans but I would not rule out any demographic from being his supporters.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:27PM (#10549046)
I'm not sure how this is in any way related to the discussion at hand. The FPOe never had the opinion that Austria was a victim. If anything the FPOe had party members there were way too attached to national socialism and probably still has some.

However if you look at present day FPOe they are attracting votes because they are the only party which promises a solution for the refugee crisis and problem that badly managed immigration in Austria causes.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by jacquesm on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:33PM (#10549080)
It's related because you take exception to the term 'modern Austrian'. I take exception to the generalization to all but find it perfectly believable that a segment of modern day Austrians is still in convenient denial. From personal anecdote I can confirm it but I don't like to go down that route so I'd rather stick to the statistics about the right wing party representation in Austria and submit that amongst a group that large there must be some overlap with the group that still sees Austria as the victim of the Nazis. That's simple statistics and does not require exceptional leaps of faith.

Aside: Nationalist parties are pretty good at finding ways to gain a foothold using single-issue scapegoating games. What you get once they're in power is a totally different kettle of fish.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @05:17PM (#10549760)
> but find it perfectly believable that a segment of modern day Austrians is still in convenient denial.

Sure, but I did not dispute that. There are people with questionable ideologies in all countries. However if you look at the population as a whole the question is how large that percentage is (among people who were not actively involved in the war).

The reason why I object to the concept that Austria is particularly problematic in that regard (which is what international opinion appears to be) is because we can have a direct comparison to Germany. You can basically divide a German statistic by 10 and then compare it to Austria to see how the countries are doing. And with regards to most things with regards to national socialism we are doing significantly better than Germany these days.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by coldtea on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @04:39PM (#10549503)
>I'm not sure how this is in any way related to the discussion at hand. The FPOe never had the opinion that Austria was a victim.

No, but the presence or a large right wing means that old ideas are not totally eliminated now from a totally un-nazified enlightened modern populace, including the idea that Austria has been a victim.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by fit2rule on Thursday November 12, 2015 @03:13AM (#10551916)
The line is, almost verbatim across multiple disparate sources: "Austria was the first victim of the Nazi's".

Its so striking to hear it as a statement that it has become very much expected whenever I make a new acquaintance and the topic of discussion gets around to Austrian culture. There is so much affinity for the cliché of it, that I think it still persists as a meme. Austrians seem to love their wry, ironic, cliché .. and to excuse the current madness with a brush of "oh, its normal for Austria to have such politics.."

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by croisillon on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @04:16PM (#10549344)
I live in Austria too and agree with the_mitsuhiko: the older generations might still think that way in 2015 Austria but the younger are more conscious, probably thanks to Hubertus Czernin's work in revealing some dirty past stories
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by pnathan on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:41PM (#10548341)
> No Austrian wants to admit the long-standing cultural roots of imperialism and fascism that took hold of their country - and still reflect in its darker depths. Authoritarianism is still the mode of the day; group-think and the mob mind very much still grips the Austrian zeitgeist, as it has for centuries.

Boy, that's a hard thing to say about an entire country. You sure you don't want to get some sources for that one?

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by clupprich on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:04PM (#10548490)
Your statement is probably true for the majority of the generation after WWII (with politicians leading the way), but definitely not for "The modern Austrian" (where I count myself in). We are well aware of what happened back then and we definitely know that Austrian people were involved of the cruelties that happened in WWII and before it.

There's also a Wikipedia entry about the Victim theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_theory. As you can read there official Austria confessed the role of Austria during WWII in 1991. That's late, I know. But also, that was nearly 30 years ago. That's what I would call "modern".

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by jacquesm on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:31PM (#10548664)
1991 is just yesterday to me.
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by boken on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:28PM (#10549056)
What use do you want us to make of that comment? Be upfront if you actually have something to say. Do you mean that Austria has only just changed its official position, relative to whatever scale matters to you personally, and should not be let off just yet from this long chain of acrid remarks?

Going by your time scale, WWII was still on three days ago. Then again, there are people who might come onto this forum and in all honesty say that 1943 was only yesterday to them, and that you mistakenly said that this morning was yesterday afternoon. Do we revise our comments yet again, in light of this fact?

By many measures, 24 years are scarcely any. Which measure do you want to make use of, and what consequences does it have? You haven't said anything.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by jacquesm on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:38PM (#10549106)
It means that to me 1991 is figuratively speaking yesterday. I remember it clear as day and it does not seem long ago at all.

I realize that for lots of people on HN the early 1990's seem like forever ago, and probably quite a few of them weren't even born back then but for me personally it's an eyeblink.

Yes, there are some who remember WWII vividly, I'm not one of them because I was born well after that but I can see how what you determine to be a 'long time' very much depends on your own personal time-line and that was the full extent of the meaning of that comment.

To me it means yes, that they have just changed their official position, and they definitely should not be left off just yet, not because it took them that long but mostly because of developments in Austria since then. The legacy of Haider is alive and well.

Just like NL should not be let off the hook either, we have our own version of that problem to contend with. (And, for that matter, our own version of the Anschluss even though you'll never hear about it outside of NL, we had a very large chunk of the Dutch openly collaborating with the invaders and a political party (NSB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in...) with substantial following.)

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by mlamat on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:22PM (#10548610)
I love the Christopher Hitchens quote: "... the two great achievements of Austria was to convince the world that Hitler was German, and that Beethoven was Viennese."
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by stefs on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @07:56PM (#10550574)
as i commented above: "when i learned about WW2 in school in the 90s we weren't really thaught that we were hitlers "first victims". we did learn about the widespread vote manipulation and effective propaganda, but also that there were the pictured parades to welcome the "occupiers" and that big parts of the population openly welcomed him into the country."
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by kaeluka on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:37PM (#10548716)
Everything you said is wrong. Sorry to be so blunt here, but sugar coating would leave room for interpretation.
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by pinaceae on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:46PM (#10548379)
utter bullshit.

while 30% of the population vote far right, there is also a strong left tradition in Austria, as exemplified by Red Vienna (Das Rote Wien), with its revolutionary social housing and socialist Mayor (re-elected, again).

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:26PM (#10548629)
Far right by european standards. Austria's most rightwing party would still not be any more right than the GOP.
Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by aselzer on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:29PM (#10549057)
I'm guessing more "right" in the sense of being nationalist, racist, aggressive, and having the largest amount of neo-nazis.

Economically they are probably not as much right. They are rather opportunistically interventionist, corrupt, and just plain stupid.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:32PM (#10549073)
They are populist and without concepts. However they attract lots of voters because the traditional parties are failing at governing. This topic however is way more complex than that and I think has very little to do with Austria in the second world war or afterwards.

> and having the largest amount of neo-nazis

Most likely, but I doubt we have more neo nazis in general than other countries. But I would love to see statistics on that. We're one of the few countries that have strong punishments on this sort of stuff.

Re:Footage of life in Nazi Austria, thanks to a new video ar... by aselzer on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:46PM (#10549150)
I meant neo-nazis / party

> Most likely, but I doubt we have more neo nazis in general than other countries.

Yes, probably not. I'm just guessing, but it looks like the former DDR has the most issues. Then there's also Greece.