Re:A lot of what we think we know about WWII is wrong
by Asbostos on Sunday November 01, 2015 @05:17AM
(#10486003)
Many countries have problems with violent political extremism of different sorts. When they outlaw free speech for supporters of those ideas, we call them violators of human rights. When China locks up dissidents because they spread anti-government messages, we say it's bad. But Germany and Austria do the same.
Would you really be happy if the US outlawed climate change denial and intelligent design? It's one thing to not like them but a massive step to imprison people for talking about them.
Re:A lot of what we think we know about WWII is wrong
by vacri on Sunday November 01, 2015 @07:44AM
(#10486248)
If intelligent design itself was responsible for drawing a demographic from all across a continent and destroying an estimated 6 million of them in an attempt to exterminate them completely, and was associated with a larger movement that was ultimately responsible for the deaths of 50 million people, then yes, I wouldn't have a problem with outlawing it to prevent a resurgence.
> But Germany and Austria do the same.
Yeah, one each according to that WP link. Irving was imprisoned for all of 13 months in Austria. Compare to the recent HN article on Rikers Island in New York where 400 people have been imprisoned for more than two years without being charged, and suddenly the extremly low conviction numbers of these "political dissidents" comes into focus.
Also, classing holocaust denial as 'anti-government messages' is a pretty gross mischaracterisation.
Re:A lot of what we think we know about WWII is wrong
by Asbostos on Sunday November 01, 2015 @06:43PM
(#10489030)
Seperatist muslims in Xinjang, anti-government rebels in Egypt or Nazi sympathisers in countryside Germany. They're all people sharing ideas that can lead them to violence. It's not reasonable to pick one of them and class it as "truly worth suppressing their speech" while accusing governments which suppress the others of violating human rights.
Re:A lot of what we think we know about WWII is wrong
by sharpray on Friday November 06, 2015 @11:06AM
(#10520150)
Intelligent Design did kill millions of people native to the Americas.
Also, this: http://imgur.com/hQ9Lyey
Denying the holocaust altogether is not research - it's an attempt to stifle research for political gains. It moves the needle from 'what actually happened' to 'did it happen at all', wasting resources - the same needle-moving tactics are seen in intelligent-design and anti-climate-change arguments, stopping productive conversation on a topic to further a political goal.
Finally, note that these laws limiting freedom of speech around holocaust denial are particular to that topic and nazism. The 'slippery slope' argument hasn't taken hold; it's not these laws that are limiting freedom of speech (hell, even with "the American concept of free speech" you still have Free Speech Zones, National Security Letters, and copyright that lasts for author's life + 70 years). The laws don't stop you from doing research into the shitty things the Allies did. They don't stop you researching Nazism in general or the Holocaust in particular. They only stop you playing politics from pretending that something does't exist when it has tens of thousands of eye-witnesses, troves of physical evidence, and heavy existing research on the topic.
Europe has a problem with violent nationalism; cutting off this particular avenue helps alleviate that, and doesn't do harm in return. These laws make Nazism (and it's trappings) less able to be used politically, something Europe is serious about - see Merkel's recent chiding of Netanyahu for him claiming that it was Palestinians who started the holocaust. How often do you see a head of government declare "Those atrocities, they're on us, not anyone else"?
[1]https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev... (does not have section 3h, added in '92)