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Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by reddytowns on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @05:28AM (#10424404)
Why is it that having certain problems gives you a license to demand that everyone else help you with them?

We've all got problems, but for some reason whenever I mess up on my taxes or something, I'm to blame, but if someone else robs a liquor store when being addicted to heroin, "the needle made me do it, mumble ... mumble ..." is an acceptable excuse.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by snsr on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @05:46AM (#10424470)
> is an acceptable excuse

No, it's not. Going with your flawed example: having an addiction to heroin should be a socially acceptable problem, or at least one that doesn't land an addict in prison in and of itself. Helping those amongst us who are addicted helps to prevent desperate crimes.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by soylentcola on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @09:32AM (#10425261)
Exactly. To put it in terms of currently legal drugs, it's not illegal to be an alcoholic. You won't be imprisoned for the compulsive use of alcohol, regardless of the framework used to describe it (poor impulse control, chemical imbalance, whatever).

But if you go beat someone up or crash your car while drunk, you're charged with those crimes, whether committed due to your addiction or not. But outside of actual crimes committed against others in society, just being in possession of alcohol or being an addict isn't illegal. Additionally, there are resources for people who want to improve their dealings with alcohol or work out the issues that are causing their problems with it. They can make use of these resources without fear of being arrested because mere possession and use isn't a crime.

I don't claim that habitual use of opiates or amphetamines or whatever is a positive thing but putting someone at risk of criminal penalties and prison because of something that is (at worst) very unhealthy is sort of preposterous when you think about it that way.

That doesn't mean we ought to turn a blind eye to crimes committed under the influence or in search of one's dose but at a minimum, possession and use ought not to be criminal offenses.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by shocks on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @05:50AM (#10424478)
You've got it totally wrong. I didn't say anything like this.

In your example, you can turn to the government (or someone else) for help with your taxes. There is no stigma (or law) that makes it difficult for you. That's not the case for a drug addict. It's a lot harder to get help.

I also didn't say that addicts should not be held accountable for their actions. Of course they should.

(...unless you're tring to evade tax...)

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by reddytowns on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @06:53AM (#10424650)
If I make a mistake on my taxes, or lets say, park in the wrong place, I get fined.

If someone does heroin and gets hooked, they get a treatment program.

What is the difference? Why, according to you, should I be punished, while the person on heroin should get all these treatment options opened up to them?

Where is my "parked my car in the wrong place" rehab program?

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by shocks on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @07:58AM (#10424843)
Please stop saying I've said things that I haven't. We can't have a conversation if you do that.

I didn't say you should be punished for doing your taxes badly.

Your parking example is terrible. If you get a parking fine then you must have ignored a sign or not seen it. It's entirely possible there was no sign and you legitimately didn't realised you parked somewhere you shouldn't. There are appeals processes for exactly this. There are rules and regulation on conditions required to fine someone for parking.

I don't understand how you can compare this to a drug problem.

Someone should get help for a drug problem because it is exactly that - a problem they need help with.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by reddytowns on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @09:28PM (#10429932)
It's hard to have a conversation if you just tap dance around all my points without addressing any of them.

Again, why, according to you, are doing illegal drugs treated as a problem that people need to be helped with, yet other illegal behaviour is the responsibility of the individual? Or aren't you saying that, and in that case, what are you saying?

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by deciplex on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @07:33AM (#10424764)
You'd have to fuck up pretty hard on your taxes to ruin your life the way being caught with certain drugs can do. I'm not sure any drug offense can compare to a parking ticket.

Legalization itself is partly a moral issue, as the state doesn't really have any business telling me what to eat or smoke or inject, or for that matter what plants I grow on my property for personal use. Coupled with drug treatment programs it is also a practical issue: the cost of treating an addict is lower than the cost to the government of keeping him in the justice system for most of his life, lower than the cost to society of keeping him on the margins for most of his life. It's also cheaper solely from a health perspective. It's good policy because it saves money so you don't have to pay so much in taxes and parking tickets in the first place.

So there's your answer: we don't have treatment programs for people who can't figure out where to park, or how to pay their taxes, because those are dumb ideas with low ROI.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by darkr on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @07:32AM (#10424758)
> What is the difference?

Both [legalisation/treatment-based approach to drug addition and fining drivers parking in the wrong place] are about reduction of harm on society and the individual, and effectiveness of that treatment.

The driver addicted to "parking my car in the wrong place", is not potentially going to die if he suddenly can't park inconsiderately, so a gradual reduction strategy of "parking with just one wheel across the pavement", then progressing to "staying just a few minutes over the allotted parking time" is not required.

The rehab program is the fine.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by aianus on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @07:45AM (#10424798)
The fine isn't to punish you so much as to dissuade you from parking illegally. It's to steer you in the right direction. You won't lose your job, you won't lose your self esteem or right to travel, you'll just look for the sign next time.

Giving an addict a criminal record and stuffing him in jail with violent criminals isn't going to steer him in the right direction at all. Rehab might. Plus, it's cheaper than jail anyways!

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by awjr on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @05:49AM (#10424475)
As an example, when the UK government tried to demonize the cost to the National Health Service of smoking related diseases (£450Million), the tobacco industry rightly pointed out that tax revenue was around the £12Billion.

Taxing drugs would more than pay for any social programme needed to support users. At the moment, general taxation is used to incarcerate users which could be better used elsewhere.

Re:How the war on drugs creates violence by lm______ on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @05:42AM (#10424458)
No one said that robbers should be punished less harshly if they have an addiction.