News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by blasdel on Sunday January 03, 2010 @12:11PM (#1028686)
I'm constantly struck by just how much of a turd the AGPL is -- it's a baldfaced EULA! It takes a huge leap beyond what is enforceable via straightforward copyright law and wallows right into the deep end of clickwrap licenses (the GPLv3 bullshit at least still hinges upon distribution).

With all other FOSS licenses, it's lazy bullshit to use them in the LICENSE field of your installer maker -- I absolutely do not have to accept the terms of the GPL to use your software, it's right there in the text of the license, so don't you dare make me click an 'I accept' checkbox.

With the AGPL it's absolutely necessary to do this, because I don't actually have The freedom to run the program, for any purpose

The RMS of twenty years ago would have never approved of such a thing, that he has lent it the imprimatur of the FSF now is testament to his intellectual bankruptcy.

The AGPL will never ever succeed. It will only ever be used by egotistical idiots and dying companies that wish to sear a scarlet letter into their code -- noone but I may profit directly from this work -- as you still retain copyright by default. Is the AGPL transitive across the network the way the GPL is by linking? It seems to me like either answer would show how poorly considered it is as a license.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tptacek on Sunday January 03, 2010 @02:40PM (#1028960)
I don't understand the ferocity of your opinion about the AGPL. Its objectives are reasonable: "don't use my software as part of a closed-source commercial web app".

Virtually every piece of commercial closed-source software is distributed under terms that are strictly more restrictive than the AGPL, and the AGPL's objectives are --- unlike those of commercial vendors --- benevolent.

Finally, licenses aren't in competition. They're just tools. You use the one that supports your objectives.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tentonova on Sunday January 03, 2010 @02:46PM (#1028977)
I'm not sure how I understand how a commercial license is "strictly more restrictive" than the AGPL, which requires that you also release your code under the AGPL. Whether or not it's "strictly more restrictive" rather depends on whether you want to also release all the source to your own code as well.

I also don't understand how the AGPL's objectives are "benevolent" when the primary purpose of those objectives as applied by commercial interests is to ensure a revenue stream via commercial license.

You yourself said: "GPL-style licenses make it harder for competing companies to use your code. GPL is therefore an easier sell inside of a company."

How is that benevolent? (charitable, intending or showing kindness).

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tptacek on Sunday January 03, 2010 @02:53PM (#1028990)
Commercial license: not only do you not have the right to use my software without accepting my terms, but you will pay me, probably per-core. That's strictly worse than AGPL.

You and I may be arguing at cross-purposes. You seem to care a lot about the hardships licenses create for software users. I couldn't care less. I think it's an inherently benevolent thing for a software author to give away her code for free, and if she wants to do that under a strict copyleft... her code, her terms.

The objective of the AGPL is reasonable. "Don't use my code in closed-source applications". As a developer, that term has been annoying on many occasions (shudder readline), but it has never seemed unfair.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tentonova on Sunday January 03, 2010 @03:06PM (#1029017)
I'm surprised at the appeals to emotion engendered in your word choices -- "fairness" and "benevolence".

I don't think either applies. The GPL is primarily useful as a means to maintain a very specific business model that relies on selling commercial licenses. There's nothing moralistic or benevolent or "fair" about it -- it's simply business.

The only moral argument I could possibly make is that it's disingenuous if not outright hypocritical to claim that the GPL is about "freedom" when its used as merely a business tool that leverages the closed-source work of others to fund ongoing development.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tptacek on Sunday January 03, 2010 @03:15PM (#1029030)
I agree that the GPL is primarily useful as a vehicle for making money off software that is also released as open source. Since open source commercial software is strictly better than closed source commercial software, I don't have a hard time using words like "benevolent" to describe that practice.

Remember, people can still compete with GPL/AGPL software. They just have to do it with open source code.

Finally, your third graf is profoundly disingenuous. Most GPL software is noncommercial. Everything we use to post on HN is traceable in some way back to GCC, which isn't making money for anyone.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tentonova on Sunday January 03, 2010 @03:24PM (#1029049)
I agree that the GPL is primarily useful as a vehicle for making money off software that is also released as open source. Since open source commercial software is strictly better than closed source commercial software, I don't have a hard time using words like "benevolent" to describe that practice

I'm not sure I understand your use of "strictly better" here. If my goal is to solve a specific problem, then isn't the software that solves that problem the best strictly better software?

As far as benevolence, why ascribe primarily altruistic motives to clear business decisions? MySQL's use of the GPL allowed for pervasive adoption, which increased demand for commercial licensing and support services.

Finally, your third graf is profoundly disingenuous. Most GPL software is noncommercial. Everything we use to post on HN is traceable in some way back to GCC, which isn't making money for anyone.

How do you think GCC development is paid for? Just take a look at the (closed source, proprietary, et al) companies providing the primary funding ongoing GCC development (although many are moving to or looking at LLVM, since its licensing provides a better model for this sort of shared OSS funding).

It always comes down to money and either commercial interests or government funding.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tptacek on Sunday January 03, 2010 @03:29PM (#1029059)
I think you and I are wasting time. You care about making things easier for software users. Software users don't make more software; software authors do. I care about the interests of developers to the exclusion of almost everything else, and I'm also simply not religious about the tools they use to accomplish those aims.

The business benefits of the GPL are so compelling that I don't think they need my cheerleading. If I write 50,000 lines of C code, and you want to stick that code in your $10,000 software package and not pay me a dime, the GPL (for the most part) keeps you from doing that. Total win.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by tentonova on Sunday January 03, 2010 @03:32PM (#1029068)
I think you and I are wasting time. You care about making things easier for software users. Software users don't make more software; software authors do.

Actually, I think "users" should pay for software as that's all they're able to contribute, and I don't think that the GPL dual-licensing model users by some enterprise vendors can actually work for most consumer software.

If I produce developer-oriented software that's outside of our core business -- but perhaps enables our core business -- I am very likely to release it under the MIT/BSD license to help aid in wide adoption and external contribution from funding business interests.

If I produce software that is our core business, then I won't MIT/BSD license it. I might GPL it, but only if there's a clear value (ie, leveraging the 'open source' name, aiding in widespread adoption by hobbyists while targeting enterprise users, etc) in doing so.

The business benefits of the GPL are so compelling that I don't think they need my cheerleading.

The benefits are only compelling for --some-- business models. And this doesn't disprove the author's point.

As for other business models, especially around commoditized software, the BSD license often provides the most compelling business benefits as corporates are free to pool resources on code they are free to link against without having to release the entirety of their products under a copyleft license.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by jmillikin on Sunday January 03, 2010 @12:45PM (#1028735)

  The RMS of twenty years ago would have never approved of such a thing, that he has lent it the imprimatur of the FSF now is testament to his intellectual bankruptcy.
I doubt he approves now. I've not been able to find a single essay or even email from him regarding the AGPL, which is interesting considering his standard evangelism regarding other licenses. And he regards SaaS as non-free, regardless of whether the source is available.

  Is the AGPL transitive across the network the way the GPL is by linking?
There's no legal precedent (that I know of) for the GPL being transitive across dynamic linking, and if it is, that opens a number of legal problems when linking with Free implementations of proprietary APIs. Static linking is, of course, still covered under standard copyright.

From my non-lawyer reading of the AGPL, it does transit between processes and systems because it covers the output of the application.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by blasdel on Sunday January 03, 2010 @10:58PM (#1029732)
his public silence is odd -- but given that the GPLv3 contains a clause explicitly granting an exemption for use with the AGPL, and the degree to which the FSF is essentially an extension of his person, he must approve in some sense.
Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by adulau on Sunday January 03, 2010 @04:53PM (#1029197)
While making a diff of the AGPL version 3 and GPL version 3, I can't see the point where you are not allowed to run the program. Can you point us to the respective part of the text assuming that fact?

Another important point, the AGPL or GPL license is applicable (not at the execution) only when you are distributing (conveying) the software. The AGPL is just an extension of the distribution nothing to do with the execution of the software.

diff -u gpl-3.0.txt agpl-3.0.txt

    This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
    but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
    -    GNU General Public License for more details.
    +    GNU Affero General Public License for more details.

    -    You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
    +    You should have received a copy of the GNU Affero General Public License
     along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.

    Also add information on how to contact you by    electronic and paper mail.

    -  If the program does terminal interaction, make it output a short
    -notice like this when it starts in an interactive mode:
    -
    -    <program>  Copyright (C) <year>  <name of author>
    -    This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `show w'.
    -    This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
    -    under certain conditions; type `show c' for details.
    -
    -The hypothetical commands `show w' and `show c' should show the appropriate
    -parts of the General Public License.  Of course, your program's commands
    -might be different; for a GUI interface, you would use an "about box".
    +  If your software can interact with users remotely through a computer
    +network, you should also make sure that it provides a way for users to
    +get its source.  For example, if your program is a web application, its
    +interface could display a "Source" link that leads users to an archive
    +of the code.  There are many ways you could offer source, and different
    +solutions will be better for different programs; see section 13 for the
    +specific requirements.

    You should also get your employer (if you work as a programmer) or school,
 if any, to sign a "copyright disclaimer" for the program, if necessary.
    -For more information on this, and how to apply and follow the GNU GPL, see
    +For more information on this, and how to apply and follow the GNU AGPL, see
 <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
    -
    -  The GNU General Public License does not permit incorporating your program
    -into proprietary programs.  If your program is a subroutine library, you
    -may consider it more useful to permit linking proprietary applications with
    -the library.  If this is what you want to do, use the GNU Lesser General
    -Public License instead of this License.  But first, please read
    -<http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html>.
Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by blasdel on Sunday January 03, 2010 @10:53PM (#1029724)
Clever of you to use diff!

The AGPL is only an extension of the distribution constraints as far as the strings embedded in the program are covered by copyright. It can't use distribution as an enforcement boundary for the code, which never gets sent to the user.

The AGPL has everything to do with the execution of the software. That is its entire purpose! I am not allowed to run the software unless all parties providing it input can get its source, with an advertising clause. Anyone bound by the license does not have Freedom Zero.

Re:I Love the GPL (Except When it Applies to Me) by adulau on Monday January 04, 2010 @02:03AM (#1029933)
If I understand correctly, the issue you see is not related to the AGPL version 3 only but also to the GPL version 3 as the "2. Basic Permissions" are shared between the two licenses. Could you point us to the specific section or sentence disallowing the freedon #0?

Regarding the "enforcement boundary", the AGPL is more there to not abuse the "private use" ("not conveying") of a free software as described here :

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#UnreleasedMods

In AGPL, You can run the software but if you make it accessible to end-users via a public network in a interactive way, this is considered as conveying.