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Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by chime on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @11:14AM (#102246)
Either I'm stupid or Fed is amazingly stupid. I'm not sure which one is the case though I really hope it's me.

The reckless mortgage boom and the ensuing crisis was caused when the Fed cut rates to avoid recession and made borrowing so easy. Now to fix the mess caused by lowering interest rates, they're trying to lower interest rates?

If you're bleeding from your wrists because you slashed your wrist with a knife, you don't slash your arm higher up to stop the bleeding from the wrists. Well true, it does stop you from bleeding from the wrists but now you're bleeding from the upper arm! Of course, you can stop the bleeding there by slitting your biceps. Pretty soon you're going to have to cut off your arm to "stop" the bleeding.

How about they just let there be a recession so the organizations that were investing poorly lose money and go out of business while the investors who were smart and focussed stay in the game?

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by comatose_kid on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @12:58PM (#102293)
I don't agree. I think the Fed should have lowered rates earlier. Lower rates lead to a better lending environment which leads to economic growth. If the Fed had cut more drastically earlier, we wouldn't be worried about a recession right now. And I'll bet the dollar would be even higher, since the world likes investing in currencies that are backed by a strong economy.

There is no need to go through a recession just to make the 'organizations that were investing poorly' pay. The market won't discriminate to that degree (ie, good investments that have nothing to do with housing and have wonderful balance sheets like Apple will also go down).

If you're going to use medical analogies, I'd say that avoiding a rate cut to punish the 'bad' companies is like committing suicide to alleviate an upset stomach....

Anyways, the problems weren't caused by lower rates alone - banks weren't very good at evaluating the risk profile of the people they were loaning money to. And repackaging mortgages to sell them to the 'bigger fool' gave them little incentive to be more vigilant - in fact, it rewarded aggressive lending practices .

I think lenders are now more aware of the problems with this line of thought, which is why they are so reticent to lend now.

Hopefully the Fed will cut again at their next meeting.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by Dauntless on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @01:09PM (#102300)
You clearly don't know what hyperinflation does to an economy. It's not like lowering rates is a silver bullet to economic growth. Lowering rates compromises long term growth for short term growth. "Hopefully the Fed will cut again at their next meeting." ... ahhh, forget about it.
Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by comatose_kid on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @01:27PM (#102311)
You're clearly assuming that lowering interest rates will cause hyperinflation. Back that up instead of talking down to me.

Explain how hyperinflation will occur when what is typically a person's most valuable asset (home) decreases in price. Explain how hyperinflation will occur if we're in for a recession and the associated job losses.

Lowering rates does not sacrifice long term growth. Rates were drastically lowered in 91 and 82 (83?) as well, and that didn't exactly negatively impact long term growth.

I'm serious, and I'd appreciate something concrete to help me understand why my viewpoint is incorrect.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by david927 on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @01:47PM (#102326)
By lowering the prime interest rate, they are making it easier to borrow dollars, which lowers the dollar's value, which causes price inflation.

If you have a strong dollar, you can lower rates. But the dollar is at an all-time low, so then to have a 75bps drop hit it, the result is essentially pushing it towards hyperinflation.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by vitaminj on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @09:10PM (#102565)
Actually in classical macro theory, lower interest rates (which amounts to the Fed increasing the money supply) leads to greater investment due to cheaper credit, leading to higher output growth in the short run and subsequently lower unemployment. With higher demand for their labour, workers will ask for more cash leading to wage inflation. And because wages are a major input into goods and services, higher wages will cause firms to raise prices - hence price inflation.

That's the theory anyway. There's been alot of criticism on it, but macroeconomists in reserve banks around the world tend to subscribe to this theory when using interest rates to control growth and inflation.

The relationship between interest rates and the dollar is via the interest rate parity condition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interest_rate_parity), which is a feature of open markets (to take into account arbitrage opportunities). Lowering the value of the dollar doesn't cause inflation directly. I suppose it does so indirectly by stimulating exports and raising output growth, which leads to lower unemployment and so on.

Lowering interest rates will likely increase inflation, but hyperinflation is a bit rich. Current US inflation is 4%, which is high, but a long way from hyperinflation (see zimbabwe - 1000%+).

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by david927 on Thursday January 24, 2008 @09:19AM (#103468)
You could have just said:

> Actually in classical macro theory, lower interest rates (which amounts to the Fed increasing the money supply) ... hence price inflation.

If the money supply is increased (more dollar bills are printed), you'll need more to pay for the same thing: and that is directly price inflation. You can ignore the expected effects in the middle. (In fact, there's no direct correlation to cheaper credit and greater investment.)

4% is stated core inflation. The true inflation number is much higher, but it's hard to know because there's a lot of effort put into diminishing it, for obvious reasons. Sure we're not in hyperinflation yet, but the idea is that it could get there quickly. While it seems impossible from the comfort of growing up in the second half of the 20th century, America is in much more trouble than it realizes.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by comatose_kid on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @02:05PM (#102335)
Right - I understand this part. But I think this is more than balanced by the positive effects of rate cuts on our economy. Rate cuts make it smarter to borrow than to save (for businesses and individuals), and the spending of this money means more growth. Economic growth is what will make the US dollar a more attractive investment.

I guess that given the huge drops in housing values, combined with the layoffs that will (and have) occurred in the banking and housing industries, I am more worried about deflation than inflation. $100 oil and a lower dollar don't matter as much as banks going under and people walking away from their houses.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by david927 on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @03:05PM (#102389)
I think you mean the 'potential' positive effects of a rate drop, because if you remember, Japan dropped their prime rate to 0% for years and it did nothing. It only makes it easier to borrow and therefore easier to finance growth and restructuring if you want it. But if the climate is negative and no one is buying, then there's no reason to grow, etc.

Deflation is also bad. Bernanke thinks that the effects of the Great Depression could have been mitigated if monetary inflation would have offset the deflation that was occurring. And I think that what he's doing here. Unfortunately, he's about to find out why that doesn't work.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by comatose_kid on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @04:19PM (#102443)
Good point - thanks.
Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by Dauntless on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @02:22PM (#102350)
"Lowering rates does not sacrifice long term growth. Rates were drastically lowered in 91 and 82 (83?) as well, and that didn't exactly negatively impact long term growth." The federal funds rate controls indirectly the inflation so if you had them very high (which hurts the economy a lot but you have to do it if you want to lower the inflation) of course you can lower it back to normal (around 5%) when inflation is back to normal (around 2%). But lowering it below the normal rate increases exponentially the yearly inflation gain because banks borrow from the FED and using fractional-reserve banking they flood the market with new money, lowering the value of the dollar. Meaning that "typically a person's most valuable asset (home)" increases in price, and decreases in value. The purchasing power of the people goes down, together with the GDP. The dollars becomes internationally unattractive (I'm looking at China's Reserve Bank for example, or just having dollars) as its annual inflation rate makes any saving to lose value. One dollar will buy $1 worth of goods and services this year, but only 95c the next year with an inflation at 5%; this has the same effect as a 5% annual tax on cash holdings.
Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by noonespecial on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @06:35PM (#102506)
Do you ever think that maybe politicians are missing the boat here? With most Americans paying about 75% in total taxes (when you count sales tax, gas tax, property tax, etc etc) it seems we are always just a tiny downturn away from disaster.

If you want your people to spend money and buoy the economy, perhaps instead of making it easy to borrow what they don't have you should try NOT TAKING SO DAMN MUCH from them in the first place. Listen carefully: Money you take from the people and spend in Iraq is gone, mmkayy?

Constantly trying to balance on the razors edge of economic collapse and then issuing even MORE credit (and measly tax rebates) when you've gone too far can't possibly be the optimal implementation.

Ok, sorry, rant over.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by vitaminj on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @09:35PM (#102572)
75% in taxes? Get a grip man... taxes are quite high, but definitely not that high. Check out this report by the tax foundation, which breaks down federal and state taxes by the average household:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr151.pdf

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by noonespecial on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @11:38PM (#102631)
Good link. Yes, in fact I did pull that number out of my... well, you know.

It was merely to illustrate that such a point exists. After a certain absolute percent, raising taxes will REDUCE tax receipts and wreck your economy at the same time. I'm certain were all the way down the back side of that curve near the "wreck your economy" shoulder. Yes, even though our absolute tax is lower than some smaller countries whos economies have evolved to operate at a greatly reduced rate.

It does also miss many of the 'hidden' taxes we still pay. For example, everyone in this state has to get a silly sticker on their car every year so the mechanic can pretend to look at the breaks and then try to charge you $35 for a $5 light bulb. The sticker costs $25 but I've never made it thru in less than an hour. The price of the silly sticker AND the wasted hour is a tax. There's one $25 fee and at least one wasted hour for every car in the state. This kind of thing is particularly noxious because they could have just had a little courage and added the $25 to the regular car tax, but instead wasted 100's of thousands of man hours a year on what is almost always a fictitious "inspection".

You should see what it takes to be able to build a shed in the back yard for your lawnmower...

Inflation is usually a tax as well. If a government needs money, can't borrow it, and its not politically expedient to raise taxes again, it can simply print up some money and steal a little from each of the other dollars that people already have.

There's also start of and end of life taxes that have to be amortized over the years of the life of a person. If you make a little money or live in a place that sees real estate rise, this is non-trivial.

Even the tax code ITSELF is a tax. The ever increasing burden of compliance is nothing but dead weight for individuals and businesses.

Finally, there's a stack of extra tax and extra man-hour-wasting hassle headed your way if you have the audacity to try to work for yourself and not simply settle into a nice job in an industry with lobbyists and get your w2 like everyone else. This is probably the one that interests the readers of this forum the most.

One slightly other off subject comment on the article. The government using taxation as a vehicle to transfer wealth from the "rich" to the "poor" is a recipe for economic disaster. Ever dollar "robin hooded" is a dollar sucked directly and completely from economic growth. Its a near perfect disincentive for innovators to innovate.

Sorry to slasdot/troll the issue but I am passionate about this particular area! The point of all this is, there are better ways to fix the economy than an interest rate cut!

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by curi on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @11:53PM (#102639)
I basically agree with all you say, except the idea that all this constitutes being on the verge of massive disaster.

One reason is that, on the whole, a wide variety of things are getting better over time. Including our wealth -- we are getting richer, despite all our taxes.

Another issue is that if we are on the verge, then, for example, the UK is already too far gone. But that doesn't really seem to be the case. Civilization is very resilient.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by noonespecial on Wednesday January 23, 2008 @12:22AM (#102646)
I guess that depends on the magnitude of disaster meant by "massive". A 1930's style depression is unlikely at this point because so much of the worlds wealth and means of producing wealth is now located outside of the USA.

The USA is still a major player in the world economy but it is no longer the center. That said this downturn may bust us Americans down a notch or two on the world stage, perhaps even enough that we have to make some serious lifestyle changes. So the question emerges: If I can't drive my hummer down to Mickey-D's and supersize that please... is it a disaster or what?

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by curi on Wednesday January 23, 2008 @12:30AM (#102649)
We're going to have a disaster relative to the rest of the world? I thought most countries had even worse taxes.
Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by david927 on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @01:41PM (#102320)
The wrist bleeding is a poor analogy, but you're right the Fed is pretty ckufing stupid.

The Forest Service used to do the same thing with forest fires. They were considered an anathema and each fire was put out the second it started until the fuel (dry brush, etc.) would accumulate to the point that a single match would give you an unprecedented, unnatural, monstrous firestorm.

We've become so afraid of an economic downturn that rates are slashed at the first chance, etc. At some point, it won't work anymore -- there's just too much fuel waiting to burn.

Put on your asbestos, kids. This one's going to get hot.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by dpapathanasiou on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @01:46PM (#102323)
The problem is that credit assets (all those mortgage-backed SIVs & CDOs) aren't trading.

So the Fed is doing what (little) it can to encourage the market in those assets to function again.

Ultimately, though, it cannot force people to take on risks they don't want, so even a large rate cut like this one may not make a difference in this climate.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by Dauntless on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @11:21AM (#102249)
They expect that now when everyone is scared to st, that they will start spending like crazy? Well I somehow doubt that, especially as they didn't fix any of the problems that created the recession. Those people should be sent to jail, the dollar will soon be worthless.

But if you agree with the FED, it should be easier now to get money for your startup... even though 1 million dollars will value about 1000 euros.

Re:Fed cuts interest rates to 3.5% by imsteve on Tuesday January 22, 2008 @10:41PM (#102607)
It's you.