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Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by cryoshon on Monday September 14, 2015 @09:48AM (#10215014)
Uhh, I think Thiel doesn't understand what is going on here. I am going to respond to a few excerpts.

"The question is, can you change those probabilities into different numbers? The reason we invested in Stemcentrx at a valuation that would have been higher than many other biotechs we looked at is that we felt the whole company was designed to get these probabilities as close to one as possible at every step, to get rid of as much of this randomness or contingency as possible. That is something that we found deeply reassuring."

Broadly speaking there are two strategies for drug research: shotgun, and sniper rifle. If we're being honest, shotgun is the dominant method specifically because 10 chances is far safer than 1 "really good" shot that may or may not produce a really good drug. The one shot wonder shops usually fail early stage when they can't produce a chain of positive data from one funding round to the next. Biotech startups are longshots-- I would say that they are probably even longer shots than a software shop specifically because there can be unknown physical constraints of biology that can silently ruin an otherwise great idea, leaving other people to make the exact same mistake repeatedly after you're gone. Reducing inconsistency of your results is a core of the scientific method, practiced everywhere, but doing so effectively is hard when you don't have full understanding of any one component you work with. It isn't random behavior, it's just not fully understood behavior.

"One of the very unusual things they do is graft human cancer into the mice. It’s a somewhat more expensive way to do this than studying cancer in cell culture. It’s a somewhat harder structure to build. But drugs tested this way are much more likely to work in humans. They convinced me there is a surprising amount that has gone wrong with the cancer cell lines people have been studying. "

Literally everyone who is serious about making oncology drugs does this technique. It's a staple. I guess it's "unusual" if you aren't accustomed to the methods of biotechnology, but rest assured, this trick has been well-known for quite a while-- it is not a magic bullet, but it's better than alternatives. Cancer cell lines are known to be poor models in a number of dimensions, which is great because we can anticipate their shortcomings. Mouse models also have shortcomings that are somewhat well understood, but don't confuse this for a slam dunk. There are still many (most?) cases in which drugs developed from mice won't transfer to humans.

"But if biotech companies tend to invest money in ways that are pseudo random, then a lot of it must get wasted. You end up doing things where you say, “I am not sure it’s going to work.” Well, that sounds like a wasteful thing to do. The standard excuse that biotech companies have is that, “We don’t know if it’s going to work, so we have to do it this way.” That has to be inefficient."

Is this guy serious? You're never sure if it's going to work in the laboratory! Research is mostly "try something new, then try another new thing when that fails." It's "wasteful" because it's guided trial and error, and you don't have full totalitarian control over any of the variables. If you think you are investing in a new biotech company (or old, really) that has escaped this paradigm, I have a series of pyramids to sell you.

"This idea was very much in my mind by the time we invested in Stemcentrx in 2012. They had an annoyingly complicated problem, all these pieces you have to bring together, and they said, “We are just going to do it ourselves.” That is a mind-set that I very deeply share. I don’t want to name names, but there are other companies where, in some ways, this was the key thing that failed."

All biotech problems are annoyingly complicated, and the prerequisites for trying to solve problems are also annoyingly complicated. There are some extremely well funded companies that can do everything in house, but it's the wrong way to go about a startup-- even a lot of the larger biotechs contract stuff extensively. Why have problems with simple things that should work when you could contract them out and not worry? You can always bring that capability online in parallel in your own company at a later stage when you have more breathing room. It's a huge hassle to buy equipment, hire and train your own people to perform a task that someone else can do better and cheaper.

"The big picture is the question of whether biological science can be transformed into an information science. Can something that seems chaotic, fractal, and generally random be transformed into something more deterministic and more controlled?

"I think of aging and maybe just mortality as random things that go wrong. The older you get, the more random things happen, the more breaks. If it’s not cancer, you could get hit by an asteroid. So on some level, technology is trying to overcome the randomness that is nature. That is a question on the level of a company. Can you get rid of randomness in building a company? But the philosophical version of the question is whether we can get rid of randomness in its entirety and overcome the randomness that I think of as the evil part of nature."

Nature isn't random! Nature is complex, cryptic, self-referential, and chaotic, but it's deterministic at the level of biology. "Random things happening" is not a proper understanding of age-related decline; aging is the long-term compounding interest of metabolic byproducts. It really stuns me that Thiel's understanding of these things is so apathetic to reality.

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by srunni on Monday September 14, 2015 @11:48AM (#10215640)
> You're never sure if it's going to work in the laboratory! Research is mostly "try something new, then try another new thing when that fails." It's "wasteful" because it's guided trial and error, and you don't have full totalitarian control over any of the variables. If you think you are investing in a new biotech company (or old, really) that has escaped this paradigm, I have a series of pyramids to sell you.

This is an application of Thiel's philosophy of making contrarian bets. From his perspective, if you weren't incredulous about Stemcentrx in the way you are, then he would have made the mistake of investing in something incremental. Whether his contrarian bet turns out to be correct is something that remains to be seen.

> Nature isn't random! Nature is complex, cryptic, self-referential, and chaotic, but it's deterministic at the level of biology.

I don't think this is exactly true. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_noise

There are certainly many seemingly random aspects of biology that are actually just a lack of understanding at the moment, but that doesn't mean there is no fundamentally random behavior in biological systems.

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by toufka on Monday September 14, 2015 @12:00PM (#10215710)
The concept you're looking for is Stocastic [1]. The distinction between being 'stocastic' and 'random' is one of 'unpredictable & determined' vs ' unpredictable & undetermined'. Cell biology deals with (and utilizes) a few stocastic processes, but that doesn't make those processes random. An interesting test to differentiate the two (at least in biology) is what happens when you run the simulation backwards - if the occurrence of an event is still unpredictable in reverse, then it's 'random', if every causal incident can be traced, it would generally be considered stochastic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic

(edit to fix wording)

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by srunni on Monday September 14, 2015 @12:18PM (#10215826)
> The distinction between being 'stocastic' and 'random' is one of 'predictability & determined' vs 'undetermined'.

The first sentence on the page you linked to suggests otherwise:

> The term stochastic occurs...to describe events or systems that are unpredictable

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by toufka on Monday September 14, 2015 @12:25PM (#10215877)
Sorry, that was not a well-written wording. The intention was to demonstrate the concept of 'predictability' not whether it was actually predictable. Edited and fixed now.
Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by srunni on Monday September 14, 2015 @02:33PM (#10216614)
> The distinction between being 'stocastic' and 'random' is one of 'unpredictable & determined' vs ' unpredictable & undetermined'

Also from that page you linked:

> a purely stochastic system is one whose state is randomly determined...it can be classified as non-deterministic (i.e., "random")

Also: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-dif...

> A variable is 'random'. A process is 'stochastic'. Apart from this difference the two words are synonyms

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by toufka on Tuesday September 15, 2015 @12:46AM (#10218991)
Huh. It seems different scientific fields use the word 'stochastic' in very different ways.

The commenter, 'bgins' makes the point, "Random has many connotations (like entropy), not at all equivalent, and is a more generic term usable outside mathematics. Stochastic means nondeterministic or unpredictable. Random generally means unrecognizable, not adhering to a pattern. A random variable is also called a stochastic variable."

And user, 'Einnocent,' "Likewise, I've noticed that network theory tends to refer to traffic as being stochastic. Such traffic, from the point of view of a router, would be considered random, but of course each packet was deterministically produced."

In the biochemical field (of which I'm familiar, though ignorant of the others), I doubt anyone would say that gene expression is 'random', rather it is 'stochastic', and their intention in choosing those words distinctly would indicate that there are not just probabilistic, but physical limits to the expression of a gene that constrain its probability space. And further, there are generally deterministic (if unpredictable (though not entirely independent) from to state) mechanisms which ultimately lead to gene expression. Were I to say that the expression of gene A is 'random,' then it would seem to imply that there is some minute chance that the result is a billion copies of the gene, when physically, it might be impossible for the cell to exist with that many proteins in it - or that the state of gene expression at time t0 is entirely independent of expression at time t1, which is also untrue. Both of these interpretations of biological processes are misleading and wrong, though they are what is conjured when it is said that, "gene expression is random." All the while, the number of copies is actually dependent on knowable, measurable, if highly-noisy processes - what I've know to be termed 'stochastic'.

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by srunni on Tuesday September 15, 2015 @01:08AM (#10219033)
> Were I to say that the expression of gene A is 'random,' then it would seem to imply that there is some minute chance that the result is a billion copies of the gene

Not at all (in mathematical terms, anyway). You can certainly define the probability distribution of a random variable such that only certain values are possible. This is known as its support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_(measure_theory)

Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by cryoshon on Monday September 14, 2015 @12:59PM (#10216048)
If Thiel were being contrarian, he's invest in a biotech company that WAS merely trying to iterate incrementally-- it will be very hard for him to find such a company that actually needs funding, as only big pharma is interested in that kind of iteration. Biotech startups are almost exclusively (to my knowledge, exclusively) long shots with potential large upswings. Nobody is working on incremental improvements. Emphasizing a company that claims it won't have any failures or waste is probably indicative of ignorance rather than some grand enlightened-investment stratagem.
Re:Peter Thiel Explains Biotech Investing Rationale: Get Rid... by srunni on Monday September 14, 2015 @02:28PM (#10216588)
> Biotech startups are almost exclusively (to my knowledge, exclusively) long shots with potential large upswings.

And it's these sorts of long shots that he wants to avoid. He thinks that Stemcentrx has more certainty in its outcome than other biotechs, despite also having a potentially large upswing.

Like you, I was not particularly impressed by Stemcentrx from the information in the article. But neither of us have any other visibility into what they're actually doing. Perhaps it will end up as another Halcyon Molecular, or perhaps it will live up to its hype - only time will tell. Given that Thiel has the money (and hopefully the humility) to hire experts who know far more about this topic than him (or either of us, for that matter), I hope that things work out - patients and investors alike will benefit.