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Re:Corn Wars by hibikir on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @05:39PM (#10082395)
Sequencing doesn't matter. It's getting the inbreds that matter. It's all in the article, but probably not so clear if you lack the background.

Getting a bag of GMO corn seed is not difficult. But reproducing said seed to the same level of quality is going to take you many years. It's a bit like trying to get a clone of yourself by having children with women: The kids will be a lot like you genetically, but it'll take you forever to make a clone.

So how do agricultural companies do this? By building special inbred varieties that have he same genotype as phenotype. All the offspring of crossing any specific pair of inbreds will be identical, and those are the offspring that you can buy at the store. The inbreds, who are also worse performing in the field, not so much: They are seen as trade secrets, and the companies just use them for research and manufacturing.

So it's not really about hiding the genetics of something you sell, or even hiding the genetics of something you use to create what you sell(which would still have some value, but still), but protecting the seeds of specific plants that are necessary to the manufacturing process.

If you give some corn breeders an entire bag of hybrid corn, and tell them to produce 1000 bags just like it, they'll ask you to come back in a decade or two. If you give them a bag of each of the inbreds that were use to make it,they will have the 1000 bags in a season. That's what agricultural companies try to protect.

Re:Corn Wars by stephengillie on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @06:21PM (#10082603)
You make these inbred parent seeds sound like private keys in encryption. You jealously guard them, you combine them to create offspring (public keys) which you freely distribute without worry, and lots of people are trying some arcane process to deduce your exact secret.
Re:Corn Wars by scarmig on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @07:10PM (#10082805)
Musing:

Hmm, so let's play with Diffie-Hellplant. So you have two inbred genomes as two secrets, persisted as individual organisms. Alice and Bob negotiate on a public inbred genome that they pull from some kind of seed store (being careful to never re-use one they've used before!). Alice and Bob both create their own crossbreeds deterministically, from the secret organism and the public one. It's hard to get the private genomes from the two crosses, so they can send the seeds in the mail to each other.

After that, I'm not sure you can get two shared secret clones from the crossbreeds and the opposite private inbreeds. (ETA: Pretty positive you can't, though if anyone has any ideas along these lines, I'm eager to hear!)

Sounds like the start of some cypher-biopunk novel, though.

Re:Corn Wars by gknoy on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @07:29PM (#10082861)
Until this moment, I had not realized I would find such a book interesting.
Re:Corn Wars by scarmig on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:07PM (#10082972)
If you're interested in sci-fi where biotech trumps cybertech, The Windup Girl is a great read.

Relevant to the article, too. It's set in a post-carbon dystopian Bangkok, where giant agribusiness monopolies dominate the world through control of the food supply, including offensive bioengineering to create mutant plagues that destroy native crops and introduce dependency. The main character is an agent of one of these agricorps, whose mission is espionage against Thailand's central seedbank.

Re:Corn Wars by DanBC on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:25PM (#10083032)
Also "Calorie Man". Seemingly available here: http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/WindupStories.pdf
Re:Corn Wars by ethbro on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @09:27PM (#10083241)
"Calorie Man" reminded me a lot of "New Rose Hotel" by Gibson. Funny how the same story filters through different lenses as the years tick past.
Re:Corn Wars by btown on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @06:49PM (#10082722)
I think you mean public keys in the second sentence, but if so, that sounds like a very apt analogy.
Re:Corn Wars by stephengillie on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @07:16PM (#10082828)
Yes I did, and thank you.
Re:Corn Wars by thaumasiotes on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:16PM (#10083007)
But in this case, deducing the exact secret is trivially easy; everyone knows how to do it.
Re:Corn Wars by stephengillie on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:18PM (#10083014)
Yes, which is why we're discussing Chinese people digging corn seeds out of American farms.
Re:Corn Wars by thaumasiotes on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:15PM (#10083005)
> It's [...] probably not so clear if you lack the background.

> So how do agricultural companies do this? By building special inbred varieties that have [t]he same genotype as phenotype.

Are you sure you have "the background"? What do you mean by this? Genotypes and phenotypes can't be said to be "the same" in any dimension; they cover completely different ideas. Possible genotypes are things like "A allele" or "G allele", where phenotypes are things like "tall" or "slimy".

If you mean that the company strains are all homozygous at certain locations of interest, and the seed they sell is heterozygous, that just means that you'll lose a certain amount of seed to quality issues when you breed your seeds directly. It also means you can trivially recreate the company strains by lifting chromosomes out of non-gamete cells. (Granted, I have no idea where the technology is for this -- it's cloning in the conventional "I have a biology lab" sense.)

If you mean that the company strains actually have just the one chromosome N times over for each chromosome, that's hard to believe. An animal would almost definitely immediately die with genetic makeup like that. But, again, genetic engineering could still do this. Also, there's no way the genetic information of these company strains could be considered "trade secrets", since it's all freely released to the public in the hybrid strains.

Re:Corn Wars by sampo on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @06:26AM (#10084595)
> can trivially recreate the company strains by lifting chromosomes out of non-gamete cells.

That is an interesting idea. Corn has 10 pairs of chromosomes. I wonder if you can tell for each pair, which one came from which parent? But then again, it shouldn't matter. As long as a set of 10, and its complement, both produce viable individuals, their offspring should be identical to the desired hybrid.

Now we just must not tell this to the Chinese...

Re:Corn Wars by thaumasiotes on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @02:11PM (#10087349)
> Corn has 10 pairs of chromosomes. I wonder if you can tell for each pair, which one came from which parent?

For humans the chromosomes are marked in this way. I don't know about corn.

Re:Corn Wars by sampo on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @03:14PM (#10087726)
> For humans the chromosomes are marked in this way.

I'd like to read about this. Can you give a link (or just relevant words for googling), please?

Re:Corn Wars by thaumasiotes on Thursday August 20, 2015 @02:22AM (#10090250)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genomic_imprinting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_methylation

That's about as much as I know. Genomic imprinting is specifically to do with DNA that behaves differently depending on whether it's paternal or maternal. The most famous example of this "in real life" is Prader-Willi syndrome (mentioned in the imprinting article), in which the same genetic defect causes one of two radically different pathologies, depending on whether it came from the mother or father.

I think it's worth noting here that plant genetics is vastly more complex in basically every way than animal genetics.

Re:Corn Wars by DanBC on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:22PM (#10083026)
So, why do the companies aggressively prevent seed keeping and sowing? Why do farmers have to buy seed each year?

If the harvested seed isn't the same as the sold seed what's the problem for the seed company?

(You can probably tell that my information comes from mostly anti GMO sources. But I'm not particularly anti GMO)