News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by lkrubner on Monday December 21, 2009 @12:49PM (#1008223)
My impression is that there was a stretch when some combination of the public mood and the government's emphasis conspired to encourage small startups. The 1980s and 1990s were clearly good in this respect. The mood of the last decade has been increasingly punitive. Sarbanes-Oxley is the most clear example of this. What once would have been treated as a civil matter is now treated as a criminal matter. Entrepreneurs are now faced with jail time instead of lawsuits. This can only have a chilling effect on innovation. I think it is urgent that everyone who cares about entreprenurial culture in America to make the argument that innovation in business depends in part on tolerance, and that, in practical terms, this means most matters of conflict should be treated as civil rather than criminal cases.

A comparison might be made to the evolution of bankruptcy law. Before the mid 1800s, most Western countries treated bankruptcy as a criminal matter, rather than a civil one. The liberalization of bankruptcy law was one of the factors that allowed our modern economies to gain the dynamic nature they now enjoy. The public's mood changed during the 1800s as it became more obvious that many times entrepreneurs failed with their first venture. They needed a second chance, when they were often more successful. John Bayer, who created what became Bayer aspirin, is an outstanding example of this - at first he tried to build a liquor business, but it failed. His father-in-law was suffering arthritis, and therefore drinking large amounts of willow bark tea - the only known source acetylsalicylic acid. John Bayer then put the willow bark tea through the distillery equipment he'd bought for his liquor business - and thus asprin was created. The point is, he needed a second chance to become successful. Many entrepreneurs are in this category.

Since this is Hacker News, I would guess that most of us know someone who has tried to do a startup, and failed on their first attempt. Many of us also know entrepreneurs who tried again, and met with greater success on successive tries. Tolerance of failure is the first pre-requisite of a dynamic economy.

More so, if you have any friends who have attempted to launch a startup, ask yourself under what circumstances you think your friends should go to jail.

I posted a similar comment some months ago, and I mentioned how many lives might be saved by the next wave of medically-focused startups. Someone responded:

"When you cross the line into experimenting with medical treatments, you're not gambling with other people's money, you're gambling with lives. You can't just equate it to any other kind of start up, it has to be held to a higher standard."

I want to repeat, many, many industries can lead to people's deaths. There is nothing unique about medical innovation. If you build a new kind of jet engine, which gets through testing but which then is responsible for a spectacular crash, then your product has killed a few hundred people. And yet, unless there was fraud in the documentation of the tests, there have not been criminal cases in the past. Right from its creation, decades ago, the FAA has taken a strong line against criminal - the feeling has always been that criminal prosecutions would stifle the free flow of information, and the only way to save lives over the long-term is through the free flow of information.

Many other fields can cause people to die - industrial automation, the transport and disposal of toxic chemicals, the construction of buildings (which could then fail and kill people). All industries are in need of innovation all of the time, yet innovation brings with it risk, including the risk of death. How much innovation will we get if we make these matters criminal?

I should emphasize, just in case people forget, that fraud has always been criminal. It has been criminal for centuries. So the move to criminalize more aspects of business is not a move to make fraud criminal. If you think that the Sarbanes-Oxley Act made fraud criminal, then you are mistaken. Fraud has always been criminal.

Sarbanes-Oxley is representative of the new trend. The overall goal was to encourage greater accuracy in the reporting of a company's financial health. This goal could have been reached through a variety of methods, including both the carrot (rewards) and the stick (punishments). Rewards could have included tax breaks for meeting some additional level of compliance. Punishments could have included fines levied against companies that failed to meet a higher level of compliance. These approaches would not have raised the risk of jail time for CEO's. Instead, Sarbanes-Oxley decided to go with the heaviest kind of punishment of all - to treat infractions as criminal offenses, potentially meriting jail time.

This punitive attitude is going to have a chilling effect on the amount of innovation we can expect in any field.

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by johngalt on Monday December 21, 2009 @03:56PM (#1008587)
Couldn't agree more. Everyone see's the risk of advancement, but no one considers the risk of doing nothing. The medical advance that kills the first 10 patients could save the next million. Organ transplants anyone?

SOX could have been penalty free and still effective at it's intended purpose. Just have a new classification of public companies. Either you are SOX compliant or you're not, and let the investors decide the risk based on that knowledge.

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by netcan on Monday December 21, 2009 @07:37PM (#1009037)
You could say that about everything in the financial world. Create government endorsed voluntary categories: SOX or anything else compliant (there are also a lot of investment you need to be accredited to invest in).
Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by mmt on Monday December 21, 2009 @02:45PM (#1008448)
If you were to run for a legislative office in my jurisdiction, you'd have my vote.
Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by dhimes on Monday December 21, 2009 @04:42PM (#1008656)
Yes, fraud has always been criminal. However, SOX says that the CEO can't escape by pleading ignorance to the goings-on of his company. If his company commits fraud, the CEO is responsible, and can face jail time because of the fraud.

I've no problem with that. I doubt it will stop innovation, except perhaps the kind Enron was involved in (that is, innovation in fraud).

You conflate a lot of issues here by introducing medical innovation and jet engine technology. However, the common denominator is jail time for fraudulent behavior. We're not talking about jailing failed attempts. We're talking about fraud.

As I mentioned above, SOX goes too far in dictating how the company should be transparent. I don't really care. But: the CEO (or, as a reply in the thread above advanced, all of the officers EDIT: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1008571) is (are) responsible. They can't simply testify, "I didn't know about that" and get away with it.

I actually think that by spelling out all of these rules, even though they are expensive, they just give bad guys a set of rules to be gamed.

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by lkrubner on Monday December 21, 2009 @09:17PM (#1009225)
dhimes, fraud has been illegal for centuries. Sarbanes-Oxley did not outlaw fraud. You are confusing issues of corporate governance with issues of fraud. There are some important issues that the law should address about how much power shareholders should have over their officers, and how much information the officers should be compelled to share. I can think of a 100 reforms I'd like to see that would give more power to shareholders. A CEO is a hired hand, just like a janitor or an electrician, but CEOs have vastly more power to do harm to shareholders interest than any janitor or electrician. Enron is an outstanding example of this. But of the 100 reforms I'd like to see, none of them look anything like Sarbanes-Oxley.
Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by dhimes on Monday December 21, 2009 @09:33PM (#1009254)
fraud has been illegal for centuries. Sarbanes-Oxley did not outlaw fraud.

yeah, no shit. We're saying the same thing. Sheesh.

But of the 100 reforms I'd like to see, none of them look anything like Sarbanes-Oxley.

Agreed again. So what is your point? Did you even read what I've been writing here?

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by mnemonicsloth on Monday December 21, 2009 @11:52PM (#1009449)
The two of you agree on everything that sane and rational people should. Fraud bad. Innovation good. Prevent fraud good. Hinder innovation bad.

You've just got different internal estimates of the prevalence of fraud, the ease of deterring innovation, and the costs associated with each.

Interestingly, when people disagree like this they almost always either start talking about principles, generalities, or hypotheticals that are obviously very good or very bad. They never say "let's start with some numbers we can both agree on and see if we can figure it out together."

I think that's because people are wired to think with representative symbols (genius inventor, robber baron, welfare queen), and to weight their judgments according to their loyalty to various ideology brands.

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by lkrubner on Thursday December 24, 2009 @05:37PM (#1014487)
Even more so, you said:

"I doubt it will stop innovation"

but you admit:

"even though they are expensive"

These can't both be true. If the rules are expensive, they will stifle innovation.

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by lkrubner on Thursday December 24, 2009 @05:34PM (#1014484)
You wrote:

"I've no problem with that."

Seems like we disagree on something fundamental, if you've got no problem with Sarbanes-Oxley. I've got a lot of problems with it.

Re:The Worst Ideas of the Decade - Sarbanes-Oxley by po on Tuesday December 22, 2009 @10:00AM (#1009972)
I think part of the problem is that the general public thinks of the "business sector" as all one group. They think businesses are trying to screw them and don't realize that some businesses are trying to screw them, AND their competitors.