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Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @05:42PM (#10025186)
This is not a bug it is a feature.

The rich are a lot smarter today than when they were the descendants of feudal landlords - 100 years of meritocracy combined with assortative mating makes for a very clever ruling class.

Edit. Spelling.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by rm_-rf_slash on Friday August 07, 2015 @05:52PM (#10025240)
My social networks include a fair number of wealthy people. Some of their kids are dumb as rocks, and they don't have to improve themselves, ever. Those are the real welfare queens. Sometimes a fool can be made a leader by other people in power. Believe me, I'm American.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:06PM (#10025299)
You might have noticed that I said the rich are smarter than in the past, but the ruling class are very clever. As you rightly point out there are plenty of dumb rich, but relatively few of these dumb rich are ruling.

As for leaders who the figurehead is does not matter - ask yourself what do the rulers care more about; who is the POTUS or who is the head of the federal reserve.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by rm_-rf_slash on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:28PM (#10025617)
Are the ruling classes more clever, or has technology and globalization allowed average cleverness to be more impactful than in the past?
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:37PM (#10025653)
This is not an either or question :)

The ruling class is both much clever than the past and technology and globalization has allowed their cleverness to result in more control.

In regards the level of control I am most impressed at how subtly it is used. To be able to shift the the share of production from 75% masses / 25% rich to 50% masses / 50% rich in 40 years with barely a peep is truly breathtaking. They have even been able to convince a large section of the population that this is all the fault of people with brown skin.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by rm_-rf_slash on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:41PM (#10025665)
This split is why I am not sold on why the rich or ruling classes are more clever than any other point in time, and not simply enabled by technology. I would like to see evidence of increased cleverness over time divorced from technological enabling.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @08:00PM (#10025734)
Actually all professions are much more stratified by intelligence than in the past (this is side effect of meritocracy). There is lots of research on this - this is just the first paper I found on google [1].

In regards the rulers have a look at their educational background. In the roles that really matter they are all very clever.

1. https://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/daniel.nettle/britishjournalpsyc...

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by withdavidli on Friday August 07, 2015 @05:49PM (#10025218)
Not exactly true, back in feudal times just being able to read was quite a privilege. They also had a lock on information.

We're much more on equal footing in terms of ability to gain information. Whether we act on the information is another issue.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @05:59PM (#10025269)
In order to have an effective meritocracy you have to have universal education. You then pick the top 0.1% and invite them to join you and marry your son or daughter. The whole economic system is designed to identify the very clever no matter their background and bring them into the ruling class.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by cinquemb on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:05PM (#10025517)
If we build upon your assertion ("to have an effective meritocracy you have to have universal education"), if some of those in power define universal education differently (which would seem to make any concept of universality in education void of such in practice), then it wouldn't be surprising to see a decline in the effectiveness of an economic system, which is what I would suggest is what we are seeing today.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:28PM (#10025613)
Universal education is not the same as universality in education. If the aim is to identify the 0.1% it does not matter if the universal education is rather spotty in quality since the highly intelligent will manage to succeed no matter how poor the educational environment.

If you want to be really clever you just give those smart kids who had a bad school environment bonus marks at the university entrance stage and give full scholarships - say just like the elite universities do right now.

I should mention the aim of the rich is not to maximise production, but their share and status. It does not matter if the pie is smaller as long as the size of your slice is larger.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by cinquemb on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:39PM (#10025657)
What would stop any of such highly intelligent from eventually co opting the structures of today and doing something short term orthogonal (maybe even beneficial to the "share and status"), long term oppositional to some of those in power, if say, they reject to continue attending an ivy/elite league university after they attend for a couple of years after getting a scholarship, and realize that they can pursue "other interests" with such forces of coercion in mind?
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @08:07PM (#10025757)
This is actually a very good question. There are really a few possible answer to this. The main one is that those clever people that can make it into the ruling class, but choose to reject it, are not a worry to the ruling class since these people are not going to organise a revolution from outside. If you are not interested in ruling then you are not a worry to those in power.

More fundamentally most very smart people realise that they are outliers and that their children are likely to regress to the mean. While the elite welcome the very clever into their club, they also use their power and status to benefit their not so clever children (e.g. legacy students).

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by cinquemb on Saturday August 08, 2015 @01:39PM (#10028020)
I'm curious about the ideas that people have when they speak of such subjects, can you possibly enumerate on the other answers that you had in mind besides the main one you listed?
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @06:53PM (#10028885)
I am of course speaking as an outside observer to the ruling class, but I have some personal interaction with this class (Australia is not that big). The vast majority I have met are intelligent and decent people. Their one major flaw is they believed that they made it there on merit, when in fact they all came from very privileged backgrounds (both genetically and environmentally). If you believe that you are rich and powerful because of your own hard work then you are prone to dismiss people who aren't rich as just the people who have just not worked hard enough.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by khuey on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:12PM (#10025323)
If you banish any of the smart/clever/etc to the underclass they might just start a revolution. Much easier to invite them to join the party.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:23PM (#10025377)
Exactly right. The rich found this out early last century with the rise of communism. What they did was very clever; they basically introduced socialism in the 1930s by shifting the majority share of production to the masses to keep them quiet, introduced mass higher education with an emphasis on identifying the very smart (troublemakers if excluded) and brought them into the ruling class. Once this "decapitation of the masses” was in place (1970) they slowly took back their share of production. We are now back to the level the rich had in the 19th C. Impressive if somewhat depressing.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by MaysonL on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:46PM (#10025455)
Democracy is the insurance premium the rich pay against the threat of pitchforks and guillotines.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:05PM (#10025515)
Democracy only works if you have leaders. The non-rich no longer have leaders. We do at least have better bread and circus than the past.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by daveloyall on Friday August 07, 2015 @05:59PM (#10025268)
Are you kidding?

What does a family line which has had uninterrupted, exclusive access to a personal library know?

I mean think about it--what is that family like? That family which has held on to the same chunk of physical space, with books and notebooks, for several generations.

"Equal footing in terms of ability to gain information", my ass!

My own toddler gets confused when he tries to describe his home--probably because he's moved three times in as many years.

I remember the encyclopedias I read as a child. But, I don't have them. I can't review them. I can't consult my notes, nor smell them and get connected to the concrete memory of the day I learned about phases of matter or dry cell batteries.

Those things are important. They change the slope of the playing field.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by withdavidli on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:38PM (#10025434)
i don't understand the argument you are trying to make.

you cut off the the "more" to make it sound like my statement meant we are equal instead of relatively better than we once were in comparison to the upper class.

then proceeded to provide examples of your toddler being able to retain information and yourself retaining information. both are about memory and ability to recall those memories with accuracy.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by daveloyall on Friday August 07, 2015 @07:04PM (#10025511)
I had to go looking for that 'more'. I guess I cut it off (didn't notice it to begin with) because it's a meaningless modifier when attached to an absolute-sounding phrase like "equal footing". I don't know the name of this writing style pitfall, but here is another example: "The boot hardly annihilated the flower." ...That's a terrible example?

Oh, in the first post, my examples are about "ability to gain information [learn]" but you were talking about "ability to gain information [access]". Okay, yes the internet and the public library system are truly wonderful. I do presume that the ruling class (and/or the rich) have some information that is not publicly available, and it's probably very important information, but yes, a poor man can walk into a library today and find treasure laying around. That has improved our footing. :)

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by eyed on Saturday August 08, 2015 @08:20AM (#10027051)
There haven't been hundreds of years of meritocracy. For one, women have only even been allowed to attend university since the mid 1800s, and only got the right to degrees much later. You can't have a so-called meritocracy when half te population isn't even allowed to particpate. At best, we've maybe had 35 years of meritocracy.

Secondly, where's your evidence? Your statement seems to be total conjecture.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by habitue on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:05PM (#10025294)
Holy shit. I hope this is sarcastic
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by api on Saturday August 08, 2015 @12:19AM (#10026313)
You must be new here. There's a sizable cadre of IQ score worshipping neo-eugenicists around here. More people need to actually study evolutionary biology. Like I mean the real kind with math and combinatorics and stuff. Or maybe I'm just a stupid head.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @03:27AM (#10026614)
I think you might mean population genetics, not evolutionary biology. If you study population genetics you might discover what results from assortative mating.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by api on Sunday August 09, 2015 @02:23PM (#10030950)
I read the rest of your replies and I think I misunderstood your point a bit (as did the rest of the crowd).

I don't agree that assortive mating could do what you suggest as quickly as you're suggesting -- evolution is slower than that. But I agree with the general idea that meritocracy has caused a brain drain from the lower classes, and also that the ruling class is quite clever.

As far as transferring 50% of the middle class's wealth upward without a peep -- this has primarily been accomplished through the "culture war." People will vote against their economic interests if it means voting in favor of their cultural biases.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by elektromekatron on Saturday August 08, 2015 @07:45AM (#10026994)
How on earth would you study evolutionary biology without studying population genetics?

Is a bit like saying not to study mathematics because you actually need calculus.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @06:58PM (#10028897)
Evolutionary biology is a real big field. Typically population genetics is its own separate subject at the university level.

I was not suggesting to not study evolutionary biology (we should just call it biology as there is no such thing as non-evolutionary biology), just explaining what is the area you need to study if you want to understand the question being discussed.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by elektromekatron on Saturday August 08, 2015 @08:33PM (#10029085)
Typically population genetics is its own separate subject at the university level.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=population+genetics+bsc

oh no it isn't

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @09:16PM (#10029177)
Subject as in unit, not subject as in degree. When I taught population genetics I taught population genetics as one half of a unit on human genetics. I would have loved to devote an entire unit to population genetics, but the timetable did not allow it.

As a unit it often is called something else to appeal more to students and is more often mixed in with other biology fields. This is a general trend across biology where areas that were once separate fields have come back together with the rise of molecular biology.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by elektromekatron on Saturday August 08, 2015 @11:53PM (#10029460)
Typically population genetics is its own separate subject at the university level.

...

As a unit it often is called something else to appeal more to students and is more often mixed in with other biology fields.

Which is it?

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Sunday August 09, 2015 @12:42AM (#10029521)
It is both - it is a a separate subject (course unit), but one that is often hidden inside another subject (unit) to make it palatable to students. To do this you give it another name and mix in some other stuff - I guess a bit like the way nasty tasting medicine is handled :)

The problem with teaching population genetics is not that it is not important or interesting, but that it involves maths. Biology students and maths are a bit like oil and water.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @09:31PM (#10025978)
I am curious to know why you think this?
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by enraged_camel on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:18PM (#10025356)
Counter-data: Paris Hilton.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by J-dawg on Saturday August 08, 2015 @05:17AM (#10026767)
Not sure if this proves or disproves anything, but there are rumours she's a vintage radio enthusiast

http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/the-truth-is-out-there

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @06:38AM (#10026887)
I think it just proves she is underestimated by some people here. I saw a documentary on her which was a behind-the-scenes look and while she is no ultra genius, she is also no dummy.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Friday August 07, 2015 @06:27PM (#10025399)
Actually Paris is quite smart, she just plays an idiot for the masses. Even if she was an idiot, it proves nothing. There are plenty of dumb rich as even with assortative mating your children will be normally distributed, just from a higher mean.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by enraged_camel on Friday August 07, 2015 @10:33PM (#10026110)
>>Actually Paris is quite smart, she just plays an idiot for the masses.

People said the same thing about George W. Bush. We have yet to see any evidence for that assertion, both for him and Hilton.

>>There are plenty of dumb rich as even with assortative mating your children will be normally distributed, just from a higher mean.

Quite a bold claim. I'd like to see a citation.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @03:41AM (#10026636)
>People said the same thing about George W. Bush. We have yet to see any evidence for that assertion, both for him and Hilton.

GWB got a SAT mark that implies a IQ over 130. While he certainly liked to play the fool for his audience, I saw no evidence that he was stupid, just totally corrupt.

>Quite a bold claim. I'd like to see a citation.

Any trait that has more than a few hundred genes influencing it will be normally distributed with the mean of the offspring the mean of the parents. The genetic component of intelligence is influenced by a few thousand genes so it is not surprising to find that intelligence is normally distributed with the offspring mean the mean of the parents. This is population genetics 101.

One of the more interesting observations about human intelligence is the variation in high intelligence is almost all genetics while low intelligence has a quite large environmental component [1].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by enraged_camel on Saturday August 08, 2015 @04:03AM (#10026664)
>>GWB got a SAT mark that implies a IQ over 130.

Huh? He scored 566 on verbal and 640 on math for a total of 1206 points -- around 140 points below his Yale classmates. I'm not sure how this implies an IQ of over 130, unless you believe that Yale is attended by pure geniuses (hint: it isn't).

Furthermore, both SAT and IQ scores are highly correlated with the quality of education one receives. They don't measure innate intelligence.

But if we still care about IQ, then a 2006 study of presidential IQs estimated Bush's IQ to be around 125, the lowest in any president over the past 50 years, and higher than only three other presidents (Grant, Monroe and Harding). You can read about it if you want [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Presidential_IQ_hoax

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @06:41AM (#10026896)
We can argue over GWBs's IQ, but nobody with an IQ of 125 is a dummy - half the population have an IQ under 100.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by ectoplasm on Saturday August 08, 2015 @04:24AM (#10026693)
The better the quality of your education, the greater the influence of genetics on your IQ score. At least, that was my understanding of the WP article, which says poor environment means poor heritability.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @06:53AM (#10026908)
Yes that is the general consensus, but there is quite a bit of argument about if it is true. The problem as in almost all these studies in the selection of the participants.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by ectoplasm on Saturday August 08, 2015 @04:00AM (#10026661)
Per the intro to that article, presumably high intelligence also has a large environmental component, in that you need a good environment not to squash the heritability.

btw, I think you didn't finish editing:

> normally distributed with the mean of the offspring the mean of the parents

> normally distributed with the offspring mean the mean of the parents

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @06:36AM (#10026876)
Yes even if you have the genetic potential for high intelligence environment can destroy it. What counts as a good environment is pretty basic though - the vast majority of people grow up in an environment which won't kill their genetic potential.

What I wrote about the means is correct. Over the population the mean intelligence of the offspring is equal to the mean intelligence of the parents. Of course with individual parents and offspring you can have sets of children where the means are not the same, but averaged over a large group the means are the same.

Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by ectoplasm on Saturday August 08, 2015 @10:20AM (#10027293)
Ok re: IQ. Re: means, I still can't parse what you wrote the first time and I'm a native speaker. <noun> will be <verb> with <noun> <noun>?
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @05:28PM (#10028722)
What I wrote was a bit dense and extracting what I was try to say was not easy (this is bad writing on my part). What I was trying to say is the average intelligence of the children is the same as the average intelligence, but the actual values of the children will be scattered and this scattering will show a normal (bell curve) distribution. Putting this into numbers if the father has an IQ (g these days) of 110 and the mother an IQ of 150 then their children will be expected to have an average IQ of 130, but their actual IQs might be 115, 140, 160, and 100.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by ectoplasm on Sunday August 09, 2015 @01:28AM (#10029588)
Sure, ok, makes sense.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by MagnumOpus on Saturday August 08, 2015 @03:38PM (#10028424)
Like another poster said, GWB scored 1206 in his SAT - that is below the 80th percentile. An 80th percentile IQ score is 113 - it will not get you into Yale or Harvard unless you are both a legacy admit as well as a son of a millionaire.
Re:Why Rent Is So High and Pay So Low by danieltillett on Saturday August 08, 2015 @09:22PM (#10029187)
Don’t only the right hand side of the bell curve take the SAT [1]? Also hasn’t there been significant inflation in SAT scores over time [2]?

1. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_154.asp

2. http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf

Edit. This article is rather interesting [3]. I am not sure how much we can draw from SAT marks from along time ago other than GWB was not an idiot nor the smartest person at Yale. No dumb person is going to graduate from Yale even if they are a legacy student.

3. http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/2000/01/bill...