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Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by gtrubetskoy on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @07:56PM (#10013749)
As I understand it, non-competes are very hard to enforce and are more of an intimidation tactic than anything else. You cannot be prevented from earning a living the only way you know how given the demand for your skills. If you're bound by a non-compete and the only (or the best) job available is with the competition, you shouldn't be afraid to take it, and the courts will side with you if someone goes after you (well, unless you're in Hawaii according to the article!).

An agreement is not enforceable if it is unreasonable, and denying someone the opportunity to make a living is pretty much unreasonable out of the box. Of course it's not true in every case, but it is mostly true for "techie jobs".

(I am not a laywer, the above is not legal advice).

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by tomasien on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @08:35PM (#10013919)
They're hard to enforce, but I can tell you from experience (current) that it doesn't matter - their existence and enforceability in ANY way in a given state is harmful in a big way. California has basically done the right thing and decided to ignore them, but my home state only has rendered them ALMOST entirely unenforceable. That almost leaves a lot of room for the casual observer to judge - and it stings.
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by angrow on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @10:06PM (#10014165)
I hope that things continue to improve for you.

There are still edge cases in California too, or at least one: if you leave partnership (not employment) with an LLC registered in _another_ state, non-competes still apply. I know this from experience with H1, the Holacracy-making company. I don't blame them for having a non-compete, and I wasn't interested in founding a competitor or working for one of their clients, but it was weird to think those actions could make me liable.

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by sib on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @08:30PM (#10013907)
Washington and Massachusetts (states with significant high-tech employee bases) are also very friendly to employers in enforcing non-competes. (IANAL)
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by ghaff on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @09:07PM (#10014019)
I've known any number of people in Massachusetts who have made the entirely rational decision to just hit the beach for a year rather than trying to deal with the potential consequences of a non-compete. And as someone who worked for a small company in an other state, we basically wouldn't even try to deal with a potential hire who might be covered by a non-compete--enforceable or not.
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by robot22 on Thursday August 06, 2015 @12:37AM (#10014548)
I can't speak for Massachussetts, but in Washington state non-competes have to be narrowly tailored resulting in them being relatively hard to enforce.
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by muP on Thursday August 06, 2015 @12:47AM (#10014574)
Didn't Microsoft choose to sue Google in Washington, when Google hired Kai-Fu Lee? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/technology/microsoft-sues-...
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by lsllc on Thursday August 06, 2015 @01:59PM (#10018178)
Looks like there are some new moves afoot to try once more to restrict or ban non-competes. Sadly there are many older, established tech companies in MA [with deep lobbying pockets] that oppose this.

http://www.betaboston.com/news/2015/06/23/tech-sector-to-rev...

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by x0x0 on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @10:54PM (#10014299)
1 - I lost a job in nyc when counsel at the new company decided my old company was too close because they both did internet advertising

2 - intimidation works quite well up to your ability to front giant legal expenses. While stuff may or may not be unreasonable, most of us aren't in a position to front tens of thousands of dollars that you probably won't get back.

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by austenallred on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @10:36PM (#10014241)
Yet if you hire someone under a non compete in many states the court battle will cost you 50-100k. Until they're blatantly not legal they're still a huge pain.
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by SilasX on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @11:19PM (#10014364)
I just wish that misrepresenting someone's legal rights or the enforceability of a contract were itself illegal.
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by wtallis on Thursday August 06, 2015 @12:56AM (#10014605)
It's hard to be certain of the enforceability of terms unless you've already got the judge in your pocket, and it's easy to put "to the extent allowable by law" everywhere.
Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by kasey_junk on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @08:19PM (#10013870)
And is very dependent on jurisdiction and changes over time in any given jurisdiction.

Illinois for instance went from "non-compete's were basically not worth the paper they were printed on" to "hmm, might need a judgement to figure it out, is it worth it?"

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by michaelochurch on Wednesday August 05, 2015 @09:24PM (#10014059)
Non-competes aren't there to be enforced, but to make the person stinky to future employers. A decent company will cover legal expenses and, in the extreme outlier case, judgments-- and an indecent one will fire you, but you probably won't get sued in either case. The effect of a non-compete on a star hire is relatively small, but if you're an entry-level engineer, the difference between $85,000 per year and $85,000 per year plus theoretically unbounded legal risk is huge.

Non-competes, non-solicits, and (except in a severance) non-disparagement clauses are shitty practices that deserve to die in a taint fire.

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by kabouseng on Thursday August 06, 2015 @01:50AM (#10014767)
Except that the junior engineer's old company won't sue because he is just a junior engineer...

The non-compete risk probably comes only with the star hires / client facing employees (risk of clients being lured to the other company).

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by michaelochurch on Thursday August 06, 2015 @10:32AM (#10016690)
Except that the junior engineer's old company won't sue because he is just a junior engineer...

True in practice, but there is risk.

Plus, it's just a shitty conversation to be compelled to have when you're trying to convince someone to hire you. ("One last thing, I'm under this non-compete, so can I get a written agreement to cover legal costs?") An executive can probably get that protection. For a junior, that's a deal breaker. And typically, the vindictive or paranoid firm won't actually sue your next company, they'll just ask your new firm to fire you... and often (for low-level people like software engineers) they will.

Tech is diverse enough and "competition" generally amorphously-defined enough that junior engineers rarely get strung up on non-competes. It's more of an issue in finance.

The only time it happens in tech is when there's a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, like what a few people (none especially important) from Google tried to do after I left that place.

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by gtrubetskoy on Thursday August 06, 2015 @11:21AM (#10017061)
I think the winning strategy in this case is to conceal from your prospective employer that you're under a non-compete and hope for the best.

If your former company is not vindictive enough to send a copy of the form to your new employer, you win. If they are vindictive enough - you lose, but you would have lost if you told your prospective employer that you were bound by a non-compete anyway.

The mere fact that skilled workers need to contemplate such deceptive tactics as part of their everyday "pursuit of happiness" so that a business can enjoy some risk mitigation I think underlines that Hawaii is spot on in making non-competes outright illegal.

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by kabouseng on Friday August 07, 2015 @01:28PM (#10023697)
>>The only time it happens in tech is when there's a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, like what a few people (none especially important) from Google tried to do after I left that place.

That sucks, sorry. I agree it is an unnecessary complication for engineers which may or may not give companies any real protection.

Re:Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-T... by kyllo on Thursday August 06, 2015 @09:18AM (#10016164)
This is but one of many tactics employers will use to try to decrease their own employees' value on the open labor market.