vegggdor

Having to use lambdas just to get the syntax to allow for a one liner makes your point about reformatting.

Rust is also new and hot

sun used to, and now oracle does make money of machines the language is supposed to run on. now counting two and two together ... I'm not implying anything :)

> enough sources of "random" genetic variation

well, that's the kind of thing the GP wants to put in numbers and a mathematical system, to provide substantial arguments.

Well, that's the main feature of a web server, besides the obvious sending of responses? The usual notion is of requests and responses, routing seems to be an avant-garde term, in this domain.

I somehow missed your actual arguments for flask, so my impression of you over-enthusiastically praising flask was all wrong, sorry. Still, if Flask does everything for you, what are students left to learn? A lot, i guess :)

> and the people who get the most upset by that notion are often those who have taught 0 students

Does that apply to you?

Writing web apps or servers are two different things. well, mostly ... almost, at least if you teach for productive use. especially for anyone who just started coding, a few lines of python can be a lot, so KISS.

Routing is done by a router, not a server. a server serves. Does that really need to be said?

Edit: to clarify, I read about "routing" in "web-apps" now and then. I have problems figuring out, although it seems to be clear to anyone. And then you come and mess up terms even more, while routing is absolutely not essential to a web-server. Also, if your idea of routing is anywhere near apache's rewrite-rules, I don't wanna know it. If on the other hand routing is essential to an ftp server, I'd be curious.

> Why are we trying to teach programming using all the fancy tools and technologies used in production systems

Wait, either a) PHP isn't a production system, :) or b) you are blaming yourself for using it, or c) ...

I was wondering about your comment on quartz composer, before I noticed that "cisual" is a typo ... I started out on Visual Basic, it certainly helped to lower the barrier to entry a little bit. In the end it was all source text, with helpful library component selection (the timer function had an image of a clock) and ui layout editing.

With the amount of supporting and abstracting classes supporting the wrapped ones, of grunt work done already, it sure as hell is high level. Visual Programming is not a paradigm like functional or declarative. In this case though, it offers separation of presentation and implementation, if that makes any sense. I never quite grogged that idiom.

This isn't exactly ment for Programmers, but level designers going one step further. Besides that, it offers accessibility that is very immediate. The visuals can provide a direct feedback of the signals processed (may the movement in the background not be random), relating the properties of the signal to other signs than textual symbols (e.g. to show a color's hue just dye the slider).

Please, do go on!

Instead of text editing, sliders and knobs to manipulate values work well. Music lends itself well to graphic interfaces, because of it's sequential nature, you don't usually work with text or conditionals. Especially for the _feedback_ anything visual works a treat though.

With expert systems you work blind half the time, because of the size, that you can't get all into scope. So you simplify and make abstractions, but it's complicated to map multidimensional decision space onto 2d. Therefore a good visual programming environment would have to be a complicated system, that, well, you'd have to learn to navigate and memorize.

Don't know what you mean, how to _incrementally_ add or reset a button, like Undo/Redo?

> I never claimed forking is expensive. I said it's expensive ... yeah, no that seems to be exactly what you are saying. just nitpickinkg.

Had to read that twice to catch it

On the plus side, it did take a stab at what algorithms he knew, too.

For windows to linux there is NSIS. I don't know how it works, but seems to convert something at some point.

I'm sorry, i love talking semantics and that's what this discussion is, if you question the meaning of embedded. That word is not well defined, afaict, and i was just trying to add some perspective.

> I would be ignoring the majority of the software on my phone

I'd like to argue that the baseband processor is the biggest part of the phone, save for relaying and converting the microphone input. The rest is just a handheld computer. But that's the True Scottsman you made out. In fact, Android might be a good example, just one that doesn't support your point too well, because the Scottsman Fallacy is working both ways. When we are talking true OS with services and drivers et al, android is relevant, ofc. Still, it might be chosen because of any other reason as well. The reference to Android is akin to an argument of authority.

You can run Linux on L4 as a hypervisor, by the way. I have no clue how that works, but maybe we have a microkernel running the Linux-kernel as a service. :)

Android is not a good example, for one, the usecase is almost no different to the desktop, except for the issue with power efficiency . secondly, the real time part of the system, ie. the controllers, doesn't run android. It rather runs L4 in the baseband processor - a microkernel.