throwaway_sjfgd
throwaway_sjfgd on Hacker News
Someone had asked a related question on the same OP thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29240007
My response is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29240601
I'm not suggesting that had monogamy not been there, science and medicine (for STD et al) would have developed earlier. What I am saying is that now that the means are there, monogamy and marriage have a 'legacy' element to it. That legacy is currently too deep into people's minds, culture and the law.
> Also, not sure if lack of monogamy would motivate research today but probably would to a statistically relevant degree.
Consider for minute that non-monogamy were to come to the world today suddenly like COVID did, leading to severe spread of STDs. (Note that this is not putting COVID and non-monogany on an equal front, it is putting the situation around them as equal.) My expectations would be that the needed medical developments for STD would also come by soon like the developments against COVID, though with the unwarranted transitory losses. If we are in agreement on that, we can consider a slower version where non-monogamy gains grounds over the next few decades. I think that will happen.
If we can fix the system, then no 'hopelessness' may anymore be involved. That's what we need to push for. As of now, the system for broken marriages is hopelessly bad.
My advice to all would be that even when in a good marriage, to the extent you can, don't make choices that would make the end of it hopeless for you.
Since you asked still, below is my current understanding:
1. Biological evolution itself depends on spreading of genes. So the big picture cannot be an evolutionary path where having more than one partner is less optimal, whether for reasons of STD or otherwise*. Unless it is so bad that had we not picked up on monogamy, the homo sapiens population may have phased out altogether. Most species are continuing to live by nature, do not follow monogamy and are still thriving. May be we have increased our average lifespan by mitigating STD via monogamy practices, while the lifespan of animals continues at the baseline.
* I have read and noted in other comments here that emotional love between men and women lasts for about seven years. I suspect that nature purposely evolved us this way to keep the parents together when the children are very young, and once children are sufficiently grown up, the parents open themselves up to new partners.
2. In the modern times, we are more capable of solving such a challenge than we were in the ancient times. Surely, COVID challenged us, however, we have made it work out overall. (No disrespect intended for the people who have lost loved ones, suffered on health, finances, or otherwise.) If monogamy is to be taken out, more precautions would naturally come in to compensate for a negative impact of STD. We however did not have provisions for such precautions in the ancient times.
3. Likewise, while the progress for vaccines may be slow, that would not have been if we did not have the practice of monogamy. In other words, if we were to redesign things for today, we may have worked the optimal solution to be non-monogamy plus vaccines.
I have more thoughts to write.
I am not against marriage in itself, however, what it means all taken together is in need of adjustment. And that will happen sooner or later. The positive impacts on children can continue as the system is refined. The only question is how many suffer during the transition phase.
Does that take into account how much work both are putting in towards earning? Or it's just considering the net numbers? Women may be worse financially looking at just the numbers, however, may still be ahead when their efforts into earning are taken in account. Or when the damages they did are properly taken into account for determining what the position of justice should be.
My motivation for asking -- What you wrote is advice inexperienced people commonly give. It's nothing that those facing the challenge would not already know.
Having faced the challenge, I see several flaws / loose ends in your advice, and would recommend you or anyone reading the same to be watch out, and do your best to learn from the experiences of people who have gone through.
Keep in mind that if one is not facing the challenge, it need not be because of some special skill or wisdom they may have, but just because of chance, and vice versa.
Feeling sorry for you too.
Women, marriage, love are different things. We should not let these be confused together. A push back against marriage is not same as that against love, and nor against women in general.
A question I have is if the STD issue mentioned still valid, as a motivation for monogamy?
I cannot disclose the detailed specifics of my case.
Here are some recommendations. Only the first one qualifies as a 'particular' one.
1. Human Relationships, Steve Duck. I had read the first edition and found it very insightful.
2. Another one that was very helpful was focussed on when it is the time to quit. I have linked a few similar ones below. The one I had read had a quiz after each chapter. I recall that for the first one, it said that a score of 3 out of 10 indicates your the situation is nearing borderline. (My score was 8, i.e. well past.)
3. There were several on the topic of divorce. These often include advice on the above as well.
4. There was one on how children react to such situations.
I had also read some that talked about how to save the marriage, etc.
For item 2 above:
Stay or Go: Dr. Ruth's Rules for Real Relationships https://www.amazon.com/Stay-Go-Ruths-Rules-Relationships-ebo...
Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving A Relationship with a Narcissist https://www.amazon.com/Should-Stay-Surviving-Relationship-Na...
Should I Stay Or Go? https://www.amazon.com/Should-Stay-Go-Controlled-Separation/...
It may also be the other way around where they saw the disaster from the beginning whereas the others around failed to but kept on applying peer pressure, where the system fails to provide a functional exit path, or when the welfare of the children points in another direction during the transition phase.
Also, things can become worse gradually whereas the decision to walk out is discrete which makes the decision hard. At what point in time does one find themselves justified to flip. I see several other areas where the same conundrum applies.
I have already written more in other comments.
> You reap what you sew
Never hold this against yourself or others without knowing the specifics and considering the entire picture. I tell this to everyone. People are genuinely victims at times for no fault of theirs. Of course, the other side is more common where people incorrectly keep blaming others.
The emotional aspects of love last about seven years. After that, pragmatics and mutual understanding need to take over. We have invented the notion of marriage and seem to have overturned what nature may have intended to be.
Marriages predate written history. I cannot be sure what led to the concept, however, I can guess.
I have read that non-monogamy is more common in the world than what most people realize.
It seems to me that when the notion of marriage was brought in, people would have needed brainwashing into it. I see several cultural aspects around marriages, some still being followed, that hint this.
Then, of course, is the welfare of the children which is critically important.
I am chosing not to write more, but have perhaps hinted upon my viewpoints on this topic.
Advise for you and others:
* Use social and legal provisions towards your own favor as much as possible whatever those are -- live-in relationships, friends with benefits, getting to know each other well upfront, pre-nuptial agreements, etc.
* Keep an escape route. E.g., keep finances strictly separate.
* Read 'good' books on how all this works, like on psychology of love relationships, parenting, divorce, etc.
* Need timely action as and when it is becoming bad and timely quitting. Don't go by the common guidance received which rests on inexperience and biases. Look at the statsistics and make good judgment calls. I have come across books on this too. Books sometimes give better advise than professional help (whether psychologists or lawyers) as the book author has no more ongoing vested interest once the book is sold.
In a nutshell, love yourself more than your life partner, and don't let your judgment be clouded. Read good books to build your judgment from the experiences of others.
Notes on why one can't just 'not care' for mental health:
* Prior to separation, it could not be ignored as it used to happen nearly daily, which for me involved her beating herself up badly, shouting at the max of her voice, with my child also seeing all that and feeling helpless. Those around and the lawyers told me that if the wife makes any false allegation against me, I'll be doomed for a long time. And it has ultimately gone that route. (One should not ideally let it get this bad, exit timely, etc., however it is not that straightforward in practice.)
* With the lawsuits going on, there is a lot of work involved. It's more than a fulltime job in itself along with the usual fulltime job. This is because the wife just makes random false claims, which does not even require them to think. It's the defendent who has to research and file documents to show that she is making lies. Even with no expectation of benefit from the legal system, it needs to be done anyways as the situation would only be worse if not done. While in theory it's 'innocent until proven guilty', that does not mean in practice that the hard work is before the wife. The hard work is still before the husband. So even if you try to, you cannot ignore the legal work that continues and brings functional stress.
* There is a moral responsibility towards the welfare of the child. So just letting go does not fit.
* I see many men give up. They yield to the unjust and frivolous demands of the wife to avoid the above stresses. Giving up encourages more women and their unscrupolous lawyers to do the same, which would go on to make lives of other people worse. Hence, there is a moral responsibility to keep trying hard for justice for sake of others as well.
* Even if one is able to mentally let go of what is happening, there are things missing from life, which I sorely miss. Psychology research only says that it's very tough and leads to depression, etc. I have myself read a lot besides having professional help. If someone were to ask me "If you know and understand so much, are wise, how come you are still in so much pain?", my answer, because even the theory says so. Not easy to circumvent the theory!
* And so on.
Very short background:
* Wife abusive from the beginning
* Sexless marriage as she refused
* Beating herself up for years
* She's not earning (highly qualified)
* Did not take care of child or home either
* Tried to frame me however I figured and escaped
* Living separately now
* She filed false and frivolous violence complaint against me
* Not letting me meet my child
* Court granted overly high alimony/maintenance to her
* Lawsuits running delayed due to the pandemic
* She is failing to supply evidence for her case
* Is not even honoring prior court orders
* I have and am diligently filing everything
* Lot more has happened, above is just a summary
Yet, the system is failing to do due diligence and is so far against me nevertheless. I do have good lawyers helping.
I can connect with many comments here on the OP, some of which say that no action is taken against women even if it is proven that they were blatantly lying.
I am facing degradation of cognitive abilities due to prolonged stress, some of which seem permanent.
I am losing trust over the legal system. Marriage as a notion itself feels wrong.
I have little interest left in life other than wishing for justice and taking care of the teenage child. Thoughts of suicide come and go. I have been taking professional help.
Separately:
* I am very reputed in my circles for my honesty and talents and am seen as a role model.
* They share quotes from self-help books -- That it's all meant for good ultimately, trouble is intended by the divine to strengthen good people, it's a beautiful life after all.
* I do recognize that many people are worse off with not even food to eat.
There's more to it indeed as you guessed.
The root cause of the problem is still there and cannot realistically go away easily [1]. I'm consulting with psychologists and was taking medicine (held currently by the lock down). It has not helped to read literature myself [2] as it only says sadness and depression are likely given the circumstances.
Among the good things: I have a good job [3], have several friends who are supportive, am trying hobbies like music. I'm generally exercising also, slowed by lock down.
[1] I've been in an abusive and sexless marriage for over a decade, living separately now. Spouse has filed a false violence case against me, the matter is in the courts and proceeding at its own pace. And there's more.
[2] E.g., Maslow's hierarchy of needs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)
[3] My performance is below my standards due to low motivation and negative impact of stress on memory. I am barely able to do anything myself, however, I'm doing great in guiding and mentoring others which is an important part of my role. It has helped to let them know of my personal situation and everybody is supportive.