jondeval
The point is that the identical moral reasoning process is being applied consistently to all people, namely, sexual activity is to be avoided outside of a marriage open to children. Gay people are not being targeted by some sort of religious moral carve-out.
But it should be stressed that this is no way a consequence a specific teaching that targets people with same-sex attraction.
The root cause of the trouble is the fact that the Catholic Church has consistently taught something that is always counter-cultural, difficult, and even quite radical. Namely that the only proper place for sexual intimacy is within a life long bond between one man and one woman for the purpose of raising children.
Where is the inconsistency? A heterosexual man is called to chastity as well. If he acts against this by cheating on his spouse I don't think the CC would be 'condemning an intrinsic quality' he was made with.
The teachings of Jesus should piss everyone off in some way or another.
> if we define God as base reality, then God exists by definition.
Right. You are stating the conception of God that is advanced by Judaism and Christianity. Its succinct expression is put forth by Thomas Aquinas and can also be found in the thinking of Aristotle.
To get even more concrete, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that God is ipsum esse subsistens or roughly subsistent being itself.
> In that case why not just call it "reality" or "the universe"?
I think you're touching on a good point. Let me take each case separately because I see them as slightly different:
>> ... why not just call it "reality" ...
You sort of can. As long we acknowledge that reality is made up of things that are more and less contingent. For example I'm looking at my headphones as I type. I can say 'these headphones are reality'. Even though these headphones are real, we both know that they would be a terrible candidate for base reality itself since the headphones can't explain their own existence and are clearly contingent on other things in being. (similar to the teapot)
>> ... why not just call it ..."the universe" ...
Typically when people say "the universe" they are implying the sum total of all material reality as we observe it.
The question is: is this the best or even a good candidate for base-reality. I think the answer is no for a very simple reason. The universe changes. energy changes form, objects change in an emergent phenomena we call time, they move through space, there are stars and not stars, and atoms and not atoms etc.
Everything else that we know of or can conceive of that changes as much as the universe does is coupled to a more fundamental reality that is the cause and explanation of the change.
So the universe is real, like the headphones, it just can't be the best candidate for base-reality itself.
So what is a good candidate for base reality?
* For starters there is only one base-realty. If there were 2 or more then you would need something more fundamental to distinguish them.
* Whatever this base reality is, it's utterly simple. It has no parts since parts would require distinctions and more fundamental explanations to identify them.
* Base reality needs to be outside time and space, because of the whole can't change thing I eluded to earlier.
* Finally, anything that has the potential to actually exist in reality, is in some weird way already present in base-realty. This is just a different way of saying that base-reality is the cause (directly or indirectly) of all things. cause of all possible potential things -> all possible potentials -> all-potentials -> omni-potentials -> omnipotent.
So, by necessity there must be a base-reality that is at a minimum: one, simple, eternal, immaterial, and omnipotent.
We then assign (like a reference pointer :^) ), the english word God to whatever this best candidate for base reality is, being sure to acknowledge that we are really dealing with the best candidate.
const God = (maximally full expression of base reality)
> I don't get what the Romeo and Juliet example shows.
Apologies if this is not helpful. I offered this analogy to get closer the proper definition of God that I outlined above. In the same way Romeo and Juliet can never step outside of the play, we can nonetheless see that Shakespeare is the their creator and is in a sense closer to Romeo and Juliet then they are to themselves. You and I cannot step outside of base reality but it should be obvious that we are held in existence by something that is more fundamental then ourselves.
> If someone says they know there is a teapot in orbit around Proxima Centauri and I disagree with them, neither of us can prove or disprove the other. That doesn't mean we both have an equal claim to being right.
I agree with you. No person is rationally justified in believing in such a teapot without evidence. However, a teapot is a contingent thing. Meaning it's very existence depends on the existence of other things (tea, water, the ceramic material that makes it up, Proxima Centauri etc.)
I suspect (I could be wrong here) that you are tacitly implying that people who assert the existence of God are making a similar move.
Please keep in mind that God is by definition base-reality and non-contingent and so exists necessarily.
To illustrate the difference here with an analogy: If we witnessed an alternative rendition of a conversation between Romeo and Juliet where they attempted to prove the existence of Shakespeare, we wouldn't be surprised if they failed to find evidence for Shakespeare from within the play and their own character existence. But at the same time we would find their conclusion absurd if they thought they had successfully proved that Shakespeare did not exist. They are Romeo and Juliet after all.
Having a build tool like make that is more closely aligned with the system level feels more natural for orchestrating build/test/deploy tasks that by their very nature contain more cross-cutting concerns.
> His argument doesn't make sense if Adam didn't really exist.
I think you are completely correct. CS Lewis provides and extensive set of thoughts about paradisal man in 'The Problem of Pain'. He does this in a way that incorporates an understanding that man evolved from lower common ancestors while attempting a faithful, albeit not literalistic view of the story of the garden. You may or may not have read those chapters, but either way do you think that a possible reconciliation along these lines can exist?
More concretely Pope Pius XII lays out just such a reconciliation in the encyclical Humane Generis that asserts two points: (1) The theory of evolution should be taken seriously and there is strong evidence that human beings evolved from a common ancestors with the apes and (2) The story of Adam and Eve is a story about a real event, although the language expressing the truth of the event should not be interpreted strictly literally.
If you're still on the thread I would be curious to get your thoughts.
But I wouldn't concede that morality is a human invention like the computer. That would imply that it's accidental and not grounded in anything fundamental to our species or nature's laws.
Do you believe that choosing to feed your kids, or choosing to not kill someone are simply created constructs like the computer or the airplane?
Also, I think these two statements can be true at the same time: (1) The Moral Law is real and exists outside of our subjective experience and historical cultural evolution and (2) concepts like Karma are without evidence.
The fact that non-human animals live an existence of violent survival does not seem to be prima facie evidence for the nonexistence or incoherence of human morality.
Human beings are rational animals. The term rational here is being used in a specific and technical sense. Non-human animals are subject to the laws of nature in a manner that acts more directly on their passions. Human beings are also subject to the laws of nature, but the forces of nature are mediated by our rationality.
Animal Act: (1) Offspring are hungry (2) brings food to offspring
Human Act: (1) Offspring are hungry (2) Reflects and Decides to provide food (3) brings food to offspring
An act is deemed immoral if it is a misuse of the rational faculty for ends that are not in conformity with the laws of nature.
Human Act (immoral): (1) Offspring are hungry (2) Reflects and Decides not to provide food for selfish reasons (3) offspring go hungry
Animals suffer but they are not moral agents like human beings since there is no mediating rationality that can be misused for ends that are not in conformity with nature's laws. The phrase Nature's Laws is being used broadly to include physical, biological or evolved social laws intertwined with the essential characteristics of the species.
What if this societal rejection of Truth that we are witnessing (and is summarized well by the article) is the direct result of the success of secular humanism?
I think this is the elephant in the room.
I understand the view you are articulating with the phrase 'reduction of truth'. I can't be 100% sure from such a short description but I think that view aligns closely to my own.
More and more I find my perspective tracking with these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0
As you wrestle with the deeper questions about God and Christianity, you mine as well wrestle with the most well educated proponents of that view. The Dominican Friars who put those videos together certainly check that box.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
> See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology)
This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who knew that God is real and present in their lives. I for one find it quite difficult to sacrifice for a mere symbol or just a good long term cultural outcome.
> Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know?
Why are you skeptical? As an atheist (or in between atheist) who can present such a clear eyed and charitable view of Christian communities, where do your current doubts stem from?
For example, Jesus says: 'You are the salt of the earth.' He doesn't literally mean his followers are Sodium Chloride molecules.
Diving deeper in one specific interpretive case, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is Inerrant but the 'literal' interpretation is not always to be prefered.
This should be obvious because the Bible is not a book it's a library, and how you read it depends on which section of the library you are in.
It's a topic worth understanding and studying with seriousness. Otherwise you'll be prone to interpret the teaching as just a capricious punishment from God for some bad things that you've done.
My original post was in response to a snarky comment made along those lines but it looks like that context has been lost.
Thank you for your honesty. As a Catholic it's interesting to hear the perspective of an atheist on this topic.
Christianity rejects at a philosophical level any sort of dependence on 'secret information'. The teachings of the Catholic Church should stand up to scrutiny and there is nothing to hide.
I mean this in the most honest and genuine way. What if you are simply incorrect in your perception of why a Catholic would attend mass? I bet if you found a knowledgable Christian and asked him why he attends you would find a very different set of reasons.
> I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass.
Maybe I was one of them. In fact I go every Sunday without exception. But I don't recognize myself or my reasons in your characterization of why people go.
This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone' view?
If you have, and feel confident that you are accurately representing their view, than I happily stand corrected. Just know that it doesn't track at all with my own direct experience, nor my studied understanding of the doctrinal teachings of the major Christian denominations.
> Just don’t claim you speak for all Christians…
This is an example of a statement that is so true it's devoid of information content. I would assume that a reasonable adult who is interested in investigating the bases for the theological doctrine of hell, is also well aware that there is denominational diversity of views within the faith.
The real problem with the 'not all Christians agree' public service announcements are that they have the insidious effect of leading people to believe that there is no subset of teachings on which Christians do agree and can speak coherently.
I know it's not your intention to undermine Christianity through this relativistic dilution and you are just trying to make sure the 'fire and brimstone and sulfur lake' view gets a fair hearing, but I do want to make the point that this pseudo-sophisticated bad faith argument is out there.
Specifically I think the major disconnect is not so much between middle managers and IC's, it's between executives and the rest of the org.
Unfortunately I'm beginning to thing that this is truly a case of misaligned incentives that may prove hard to fix. What I mean is that executives are directly incentivized to be in the office. Almost all of their career capital is tied up in relationships and patterns of decision making with other executives.
Good day for a manager or IC - 'Wow, I really got a lot done today and I'm moving the team goals forward.'
Good day for an executive - 'That conversation with Dan and Steve went really well.'
This is only technically true in the sense that the weakest straw man still gets a seat at the table.
My comment is directed only to people who would be interested in investigating this topic with a sense of proportion. If you bring a sense of proportion to the investigation you will rule out fringe theologies and converge on a Christian teaching that looks nothing like the original canard.
Many Christians would likely take issue with this description because they don't want to be on the wrong side of the dirty word cult.
But I personally don't think it's much of a problem if the person you worship is Jesus of Nazareth.
For those interested in knowing the actual Christian teaching on the topic of hell, just be aware that this comment is completely incorrect.
Some people are legitimately better than others in all of the above and my view is that those who are better have a responsibility to help the team.
Here are some things that have worked well for me:
* Good information gathering can happen in group discussions but I try to avoid problem solving in groups of more than 3 people.
* A super powerful question that focuses the conversation is this: "What are the decisions that we need to make in the near term?" Now if the answer to this question involves more than 2 or 3 things, politely propose that the group focus the conversation on just 1 or 2 decisions.
* In an engineering context it is extremely rare to find someone who is both very unfocused in conversations and at the same time very effective in getting their solutions built. So, don't waste too much energy trying to correct these people or bring them back on track because they just can't do much damage. Instead spend your energy in small group discussions with other effective engineers. This is where the real decisions are made and the large group discussions are for propagating these decisions for transparency.
I like your line of thinking and I'm actually quite excited about this recent shift in physics to a more information-theoretic line of inquiry.
Is it fair to state a corollary of your question this way? Given a complete description of some hypothesized universe/multiverse generator (essentially the next layer down that we are actively trying to discover), the Kolmogorov complexity (or some variation of K-Complexity) of this description must be greater than the K-complexity of any generated universe.
In my view, it would be very weird if this were not true. And (to me) it would be even weirder if this K-complexity was some large number but still less than infinity.
How about over a longer time period? For example, say you want to pickup a new good habit and get rid of a bad habit. When you start to intentionally make thousands of little choices over time that all add up to a major change in your life, can't you say that you freely chose that path?
Even if each individual impulse along the way maintains a connection to a more materialist/deterministic set of causes, you can still meaningfully talk about your own free will at this higher level of abstraction. What am I missing?