bartminton

Really? Which are those countries? If you never pay into public pension, how can you get a pension then?

Thank you. All that and more.

> This post sounds like it’s satirizing miserable privileged tech workers.

It's more someone working since the age of 16. Working hard for an average or more than 13 hours a day for nearly 30 years straight. Earning above average is IMO totally justified, but I accept your opinion.

> You get child care for free in Germany.

Ha! Try to find a KiTa in Berlin. Even if the law says so, it does not mean there's enough supply!

> Tax is high but Berlin is still the cheapest big western city there is

It once was. If you belong to those who were forced to move into the suburbs with all the associated cost, your point of view would be quite different.

> It’s also beautiful and diverse.

I think we can agree to disagree. As someone born and raised here I've never seen the city in a situation worse than today.

> I earn less than you and get by fine, also know many couples the same.

Congrats. Do you or your friends have to make up for their own pension yourselfes?

> Yeah it’s changed over 30 years - name a place that didn’t.

Change is good. It's the only constant. Unfortunately it changed to the worst. But you can only see that, if you know, how it's been before.

Thanks for your thoughts anyways.

As a selfemployed I do not get any pension at all. That's the point. I'd be in for a tax based pension system and I'd happily pay for it. Unfortunately public pension is prohibitively expensive and a pretty bad investment. You're better off investing your savings yourself. So there's no point in waiting for me.

I think, yes, that's what is meant.

Thanks for taking the time and putting all those points together. I see the con's and I am sure, that's nothing what we're especially looking forward to. But especially the pro's got totally eroded over here. At least from my point of view. There is hardly any reasonable equality, the social divide is IMO mostly based on that. Low crime and violence ... once was. We live in one of the "better" parts of Berlin, nevertheless I fear the day, we have to send our son to a public school. Education was good, became worse but is not catastrophic yet. Getting a university degree is (nearly) free and that's fine. Still, the level of real education in public schools beforehand is getting worse and worse. Social safety net does not exist for me being self employed but the "last resort" Hartz4. I still agree on sensible regulations and the med system.

I might paint a too dark picture, but that's what I've experienced in the last 20 years, and those things are the drivers behind our plans to leave the country. However, your points are a great source of information for everyone who might consider leaving the country. Thanks a lot.

Hawaii is on our list as well. Unfortunately it's very hard to get a working visa for both of us. Otherwise it would be a great option.

We strongly consider New Zealand. Reasons are manyfold, but what from we know from friends living there, it's close to European life style but with an intact nature and mostly mild weather.

That's my thinking. What we witnessed over the last 30 years are more and more local maxima and extremes in regions, which typically have very mild weather. I spent significant amounts of time in a number of countries near the equator and do not recall such changes as we currently witness in Europe. But given the fact, that I have absolutely no expertise in the field, I might be totally wrong.

I lived on the Canarias for 3 years way back in the 90s. Loved it, but I guess it is totally different today. Nevertheless, especially Gran Canaria is on top of our list right now. It's still Europe, moving there is super easy. Weather is fine. International school should be there and a flight to Germany is a little more than 4 hours. So far sounds like an option.

> and realise that the plans you may not agree with your government only add up to 1%

I wish, I could afford your optimism. :) IMHO Germany is getting deconstructed rapidly, and if one of the leading European countries suffers the breakdown I expect, I see nothing but dark clouds on the European sky. Europe and especially Germany as part of the free, western world need to be leaders trying to solve the ecological and economical challenges ahead of us. But when you want to solve such a huge number of problems, it's not wise to burn down your whole country beforehand.

I guess, many people share our current point of view, and yes, it's not only the german society which is affected. From a german perspective looking at the US or UK makes me feel very sorry. The leading countries of the free world seem to be on a decline, and that makes me very sad. However, the situation I describe, is only what I personally perceive. It's in no way objective, so Germany might still be in a "good shape" seen from whatever angle. It's just that we're looking for a better place to live, but did neither consider the US nor the UK for above reasons. Dank und Grüße

I admit, I like your point of view very much. If you are not already, you'd make up for a very good leader. In the end we did not yet make a decision to leave. We're juggling different ideas and that thread here opened up a new pathes to think through. The unknown unknowns so to say.

Thank you.

:+1

Totally with you regarding all points you made. I believe in a horrible recession not only in Germany but also Europe lasting for longer than just 2 or 3 years. I also do believe, that the totally overheated housing market will crash very badly, which might open up interesting opportunities, once it happened. Still, all the other problems remained. However, thanks for your thoughts.

We don't have jewish roots. So not only visa would be quite problematic.

Lack of traffic, yes. No need for a car. Local products and food. Small community. Relaxed and laid back people. Sounds like a dream, right? I doubt, we'll find that, but I am grateful for the point you made.

> That said, I read OPs complaints about polarization and taxes, and I wonder if Latin America might address some of these issues

Thank you, that somehow nails it. Some countries on our to-be-checked-list are in Latin America. A personal minus is, that both of us don't speak spanish or portugese.

Nevertheless we will dig deeper. Thanks for your opinion.

Interesting suggestion. I've been to Sofia once in 2006. The city did not make a very good impression back then, but I am sure, the situation changed a lot. Hopefully to the better. I will definitely look into it, since we do not exclude eastern Europe from our list. Thanks for the suggestion.

You might be right. It just feels somehow "off". As I said in another sub thread: I don't really mind the height of the taxes. That would be fine, if infra, public services and the overall outlook were ok. But they are not. At least not in my opinion. And buying a house today meant a loan for roundabout the next 40 years. No option.

We still consider a place outside Berlin / Brandenburg. Still that does not change the fact, that the current state of affairs here is hard to digest. We also and especially look for a "warmer" and "brighter" region. German winters tend to be hard, not because of the temperatures, but because of the hours of sunlight. However, thank you for the suggestion, we'll definitely check them.

> you just need to go there and live there for a while before your own personal scorebook can be updated

That seems to be a fact. Nevertheless really interesting to hear other peoples thoughts. Thanks for yours.

>Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold?

Regarding income tax, there is a tax free allowance of 9.984.

>You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live?

We travel for more than 15 years and we mostly leverage so called PEP offers, which reduce your travel cost to a fraction of the real cost. Otherwise we'd not be able to afford that.

>Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right?

That's the point. They are NOT! The only deductible position would be an official pension insurance. If you invest on your own (which we do) you can not deduct a dime. Everything else we have to pay AFTER taxation.

You're right on progression and Gewerbesteuer deduction. Nevertheless I pay tax rate "Höchststeuersatz" at 45%. Add "Solidarzuschlag" and you end up very close to 50%.

IMO totally valid points, and of course, we're aware that you can run away from "your problems" only to a certain degree. I also agree, that "renewed appreciation" might wait for us sometime in the future. Would be happy about it. KL is actually a very interesting recommendation. I've been there for a few days and enjoyed Malaysia very much. We currently have the Canarian Islands on the top of our list - it's still Europe, climate conditions are ok'ish and one can live there quite comfortably. Thank you for your opinion.

Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already. I don't pay social taxes by choice, hence I do not benefit from the social net. If I add up all other taxes then, I end up pretty close at 70%. Meaning mostly VAT, taxes on gas and oil, alcohol, tobacco, final withholding tax on stock and crypto investments and speculation, vehicle tax, electricity tax. All in all there are close to 40 different types of tax, but we don't have to pay all of them. But being in the highest income tax band as a tech freelancer with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards. Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live. At least that's our scenario for many years now.

> Just move out of that shithole berlin and than reevaluate.

:) get your point and love it. As someone born and raised in Berlin the decision is everything but easy. Love-hate-relationship I'd say. But if we leave, we also want to escape the current, very heated "social mood", which makes Germany not an option. But SAP is actually quite a good hint. Thanks!

Good point. Actually we're not complaining about our high tax rates. It's just that we do not benefit from the state no more. As someone running my own business since 1999 and work as a freelancer, I never paid into the german social net. So I have no expectations there, have a private health insurance, take care for my pension by saving and investing and cover most risks with private insurance. That's fine, because it was my choice. The point is, that from a certain income your income tax get's crazily high. Combined with other taxes everyone else also pays I end up working for taxes around 70% of my time. That WOULD be ok, if the state / government at least provided me with working infra and services, if kids care would be ok'ish (as promised), school standards were high (they once were) and infra like public transport, railway and air transport were not foo'd up beyond repair. I can accept poor conditions, if my taxes are low and I can save / invest for my pension. I can also accept good conditions and therefor high taxes. In Germany it's high taxes and bad conditions ... at least for us.

> But the decision to leave instead of trying to engage and improve things is pretty black and white mentality in itself, isn't it?

You've got a point here. Yes, it's giving up. And to be honest, we both gave up. But since we're responsible for our little one, we still try to make the best of it, hence want to restart somewhere else. But I get your point. It's just that we both spent all of our energy over the last 25 years to improve things in all sorts of different dimensions and simply ran out of "mana".

We've traveled to Malaysia and Singapore. Climate-wise both fine, we're just not sure, how easy it is, for Europeans to establish there. Spain is an option, but especially Gran Canaria is on top of our list, I lived there for a while and really enjoyed it. Thanks for your recommendations!