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Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by raverbashing on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:18AM (#7404687)
How many people die due to pollution related causes again? How many will be affected due to climate change?

How many birds die because of eolic parks?

How many animals die or lose their habitat when a hydroelectric power plant is built?

"in just 65 years or so since nuclear power is available"

every single time a technology has been introduced this has caused an impact. People still die in plane crashes, car crashes, complications due to surgeries, etc

And of course nobody died in the petrol extraction->refining->distribution->thermal power plants process.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by placeybordeaux on Saturday March 15, 2014 @12:38PM (#7405075)
What is your point?

EDIT: ah I missed that there was a deleted comment above.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by odonnellryan on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:21AM (#7404696)
List of Coal accidents in China alone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_mining_accidents_i...

List of Oil spills: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

Deaths related to Oil and Gas: http://gdacc.org/accidents-injuries-natural-gas-injuries/

Where should we get our energy?

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by psykovsky on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:43AM (#7404736)
> Where should we get our energy?

Preferably using some process that won't leave the planet uninhabitable when something, inevitably, goes wrong.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by mildtrepidation on Saturday March 15, 2014 @11:20AM (#7404843)
The main techniques we have now will make the planet uninhabitable even if nothing goes "wrong." Pollution is an ongoing disaster.

I think it's clear we should be spending more time, money, and effort on truly renewable and environmentally friendly power sources. People have been turning that discussion into a "nuclear or not" debate for a long time, which has certainly hampered whatever progress we have made in that direction.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by PeterisP on Sunday March 16, 2014 @10:38PM (#7412568)
If instead of containing Fukushima we bombarded the area with nuclear bombs, it still wouldn't leave the planet uninhabitable.

Even on years with major nuclear disasters, coal energy production kills more people than nuclear plants. Proper nuclear plants are the second safest option after hydro, and we can't get all our energy from hydro unless we start using much, much less energy.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by odonnellryan on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:45AM (#7404740)
I agree.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by lvh on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:11AM (#7404672)
Are you taking into consideration advancements in reactor technology? The state of the art is hardly comparable to Chernobyl. And it's not like we just don't know yet how badly current-gen would fail; we have pretty strong physics and engineering arguments that show it doesn't fail that way.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by ensignavenger on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:51AM (#7404755)
The State of the Art when Chernobyl was built was far beyond Chernobyl- but corners were cut, just like Fukushima.The question isn't can we build (and maintain) very safe Nuclear reactors, the question is, will we?

Just to be clear, I am of the opinion that modern Nuclear is a great option for our present energy needs.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by ori_b on Saturday March 15, 2014 @03:42PM (#7406026)
Chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen. It had no containment, a design that caused a spike in output when the control rods were driven in to reduce output (the tips on the control rod were the issue), and even then, the accident only happened when the engineers deliberately caused a fault. It's like a car that was designed with no airbags or crumplezones had it's brake lines deliberately cut, and then it was driven into a wall at full speed to see what would happen. No surprise that someone got hurt.

And Fukushima? It had containment, but it was using a design that predated Chernobyl, and sacrificed safety for the ability to produce material that you could use to build bombs.

Nuclear is far from perfect, but compared to the damage we're doing with fossil fuels, I'd welcome a change to the relatively safe and clean nuclear power, especially with modern, safe designs.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by iSnow on Saturday March 15, 2014 @07:26PM (#7406989)
The problem with nuclear is not the reactors - they can be reasonably safe with today's technology.

The problem is nuclear waste. No matter what nuclear technology you use, it leaves behind tons of waste that will be hazardous in tens of thousands of years.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by ori_b on Saturday March 15, 2014 @11:02PM (#7407598)
The more dangerous nuclear waste is, as a rule, the faster it decays. And the amounts of it that are produced are, by the scale of most industrial processes, tiny.

It's a very difficult problem to deal with -- politically. Technically, it's not a non-issue, but it is easier to deal with than, say, the horribly toxic tailings ponds that you get from most mining processes, or the residues from the tar sands. And those, unlike nuclear waste, are produced in massive quantities, and do not decay naturally.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by dalke on Sunday March 16, 2014 @05:50PM (#7411530)
I think you mean "the more radioactive nuclear waste is, as a rule, the faster it decays". "Danger" is function of half-life, decay mode, and pharmacokinetics, and some longer-lived isotopes are more dangerous than some shorter-lived isotopes.

It's a minor detail which doesn't really distract from your major point.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by garric on Sunday March 16, 2014 @11:25AM (#7409725)
As I understand it, that's very outdated information. These designs have been passively safe as of twenty years ago when they were pioneered by the integral fast reactor. The plant can lose all power and will not ever melt down; liquid metal reactors just don't work that way.

One of the key advantages that recommends fourth generation nuclear reactor technology is that the design eliminates much of the existing "waste" (it's really just ~$50T worth of unspent fuel we have laying around that could power the entire world for ~1000 years) that's been produced by past and current light water reactors. A better estimate would be in the 200 to 400 year range now. That's right; we're actually capable of getting rid of nuclear waste with nuclear reactors.

Yes that's still a good number of years, but estimates for global deaths per year caused just by particulate pollution from coal power plants range from a conservative 100,000 up to 3,000,000. How many people per year is nuclear currently killing? I was pretty incredulous to find this out, but the answer is zero. And given that they produce negligible CO2 as compared with fossil fuels, they are recommended by the climatologist who is largely responsible for drawing attention to climate change since the 1980s, James Hansen. The conclusion (begins on page 116 of this .rtf file) in his 2009 book is worth reading:

http://ge.tt/5GTotjQ1/v/0

Ironically, traditional environmentalist movements that indiscriminately protested and continue to protest against any nuclear power technologies have effectively greenwashed the "clean coal" (wtf) mantra into existence because fossil fuel plants are the only other alternative for baseload. To me, this seems eerily similar to the protestation of tobacco companies that their products were causing cancer. We're still building coal power plants, but the CO2 sequestration they're currently talking about would require burning ~25% more coal to power the process, making it so uneconomical that it won't ever happen.

And since sodium-cooled fast reactors can also run on decommissioned nuclear weapons, decreasing the risk of nuclear proliferation, we have every reason to be using these technologies for baseload power and zero reasons not to. Given the choice, I'd rather live near a nuclear power plant than any other type. Perhaps I'd finally be able to get an electric car that would then be functionally carbon neutral, though maybe not avoiding the ecological damage externalized in the building such massive batteries. (That's something I still need to look into for myself. Anyone have any academic sources other than the Union of Concerned Scientists/Lobbyists?)

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by btilly on Saturday March 15, 2014 @07:57PM (#7407114)
The question isn't can we build (and maintain) very safe Nuclear reactors, the question is, will we?

The answer to that is no. When people believe something to be safe, they cut corners. This continues until it is demonstrated to not be safe by disaster.

A disaster then causes people to be safety conscious until they forget.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by rtpg on Saturday March 15, 2014 @09:59PM (#7407456)
That's a pretty reductionist argument.

Look at planes. Considering the number of planes in the air the fact that we have so few accidents is pretty astounding. We were able to build an entire manufacturing process that very strictly avoids cutting corners.

Then again, maybe we don't really think about planes as being safe.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by btilly on Sunday March 16, 2014 @02:48AM (#7408245)
Aviation has taken the attitude of every plane crash being a major disaster. Hence crashes per mile may be low, but we have enough disasters and near misses to keep attention focused on continuous improvement.

There is no technology that I am aware of which comes with risk of disaster, and does not suffer a major disaster at least once every generation or two.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by dalke on Sunday March 16, 2014 @06:56PM (#7411767)
That's a tough one - and an interesting challenge! Almost everything I could think of either didn't come with a risk of disaster (or at least, no risk of major disaster), or has had major disasters.

The best I came up with was determining longitude based on the lunar distance. It could be disaster for a single ship that got it wrong, but I don't think there were major disasters during the 80 years (2-3 generations) it was in service.

I can think that a fleet might have ended up in the wrong place (like the Scilly naval disaster of 1707), so there could be a major disaster, but a fleet also has enough independent people doing their own reckonings that it would be self-correcting. I looked through the UK and French lists of ship disasters, but found no multi-ship disasters based on location errors during 1767 to ~1850.

(If you want a physical technology, rather than mathematical technique, then Hadley's octant, integrated with Vernier's scale, which made the octant precise enough that sailors could use to judge longitude usefully. In turn, it was effectively replaced in the 1800s by the sextant.)

But I don't know enough about nautical history to know if there were major disasters caused by octant/sextant use which were comparable to pre-lunar distance methods.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by maratd on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:15AM (#7404681)
The damage wrought by the alternatives is MUCH worse. We're far better off with nuclear.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by iaskwhy on Saturday March 15, 2014 @03:50PM (#7406056)
How are renewable and environmentally friendly power sources* MUCH worse?

* Citing mildtrepidation's comment on this thread, it's a good one.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by ars on Saturday March 15, 2014 @11:20PM (#7407648)
> How are renewable and environmentally friendly power sources* MUCH worse?

Because you need enormous quantities of the machinery used to harvest the power. Hundreds if not thousands of times as much as you would need in a nuclear reactor.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by bitwize on Saturday March 15, 2014 @05:03PM (#7406447)
Show me an environmentally friendly energy source with anywhere near the EROEI of the environmentally unfriendly ones.

The real solution is gradual powerdown and, eventually, population reduction.

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by maxerickson on Saturday March 15, 2014 @09:44PM (#7407421)
Hydro wins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Ret...

I guess it is highly unfriendly to the local environment though (on the other hand, we already did most of the damage in the good spots).

There is also the "high enough" factor. If things got awkward, we could run a civilization on solar PV, and even devote some of the energy production to increasing the total energy production.

(I sort of expect the cost curve on solar to start to bend quite a lot faster in the next few years; it's reached the point where it almost beats the grid without subsidies)

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by PeterisP on Sunday March 16, 2014 @10:42PM (#7412582)
Going to hydro is exactly what the parent poster says - gradual powerdown and/or population reduction. There's just so much hydro potential around, we're already using almost all of the good spots, and there's not nearly enough capacity on this planet for our current use.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by maxerickson on Monday March 17, 2014 @09:42AM (#7414923)
I thought they were claiming that EROI makes alternative energy sources intractable. That isn't true. The oil/coal preference is all about cost and convenience.

(The 'hydro wins' was just the sort of fun/obnoxious way to link to the chart showing that lots of systems have a net EROI, which is almost all you need)

Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by iaskwhy on Saturday March 15, 2014 @06:25PM (#7406772)
EROEI does not take into account time which is where renewables really shine. Renewables are the solution, they are infinite unlike all the others. Reducing our consumption is needed, I can agree with that.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by anigbrowl on Saturday March 15, 2014 @09:28PM (#7407384)
The inputs are infinite. The harvesting equipment has a limited operational lifetime. I'm pro -renewable, but but it's not a silver bullet, which is why I'm also pro nuclear. Renewables are also a long way from taking up the slack of fossil fuels just yet, so you can't just say 'renewables!' and call it done.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by clarry on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:22AM (#7404698)
I'd be more concerned about old plants being still run than about new plants being built. If you believe the geeks, Fukusima and Chernobyl would've not happened with modern design.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by neverminder on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:31AM (#7404719)
I see your point as philosophical. It's the same old "commercial planes are statistically the safest way of transportation" and yet the whole world immediately knows about each plane catastrophe, rare as they are. Nobody cares about how many people die in car accidents every day just as nobody cares about how many deaths are caused by fossil fuel power plants.
Re:Forests Around Chernobyl Aren’t Decaying Properly by kristoffer on Saturday March 15, 2014 @10:12AM (#7404674)
What's the alternative? Honest question.