I think the only reason of the three that anybody here opposes is the "punishment" reason. I oppose it so far as we cannot demonstrate that it will decrease the number of offenders.

I suspect that in some cases it does. Fear of the law probably does a decent job of keeping most people from enjoying alcoholic beverages on sidewalks for instance. (but I also suspect that in many cases (if not all cases) the imprisonment could be replaced with other punishments. Punitive damages are one obvious example of non-imprisonment punishment.)

In cases like Charles Manson, I doubt punishment is valuable. Crazy people aren't exactly known for their fear of consequences. If this is the case, then punishment of Charles Manson would be pointless and frankly verging on barbaric (though detainment of Charles Manson would of course be absolutely essential).

I don't really know how to effectively comment on this. I raised a son for whom punishment would absolutely not have worked. I know there is a place for it in the world but most of the time it comes from a place of a) spite and b) not knowing how to get good results. Those are usually poor reasons to do a thing.

I was something of a pain in the ass as a kid. Attempts to punish me would typically embolden me and either make me act even worse in the future or merely work harder to not get caught. My parents found that talking to me (aka, 'reform') was more effective.

At the same time, the reason why I do not currently break the speed limit (to an excessive degree) when I feel that it is safe is that I am not keen on being slapped with a fine. Speeding fines are a punishment that seems effective at discouraging me from speeding.

I don't think speeding fines are really punishment. It is a cost that you are not willing to pay without good reason. If you had sufficient reason to be in a rush, you might decide it was an acceptable cost. But the occasional fine doesn't really have pain and suffering attached, like loss of your license, damage to your reputation, jail time, etc.

Cost benefit analysis makes sense. "I am going to hurt you and make you suffer" rarely does. There are exceptions but it is generally a desperate ploy, not one focused on a goal. It is generally an admission that we don't know how to accomplish a civilized environment. We don't know how to design an effective society. We are too stupid, collectively, as Americans to achieve civil solutions. So we are sfimply going to hurt you.

> I don't think speeding fines are really punishment. It is a cost that you are not willing to pay without good reason.

I think that it would be fair to say that this sort of imposed cost is a punishment. It seems to meet definition 2b here (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment). That cost/punishment/whatever isn't worth the reward, so I don't do it.

I mean, it isn't a "speeding tax" or "speeding fee" that you pay for the retroactive right to speed for a while.

As another example, the fine here for violating open container laws in a public park is something like $25, which I would gladly pay on some nice summer days for a personal permit to drink in the park. I don't drink in the park and accept the possibility of that fine though, despite the naive cost/benefit ratio working out. It isn't just about the $25, I also don't want to be fined. The "fine" part I don't like; the "$25" part is okay.

(Repeat offense will of course result in the loss of your license, a penalty that acts as a more severe punishment but also a form of detainment. When your license is taken the idea is that you cannot endanger the public until you prove yourself capable of driving safely (prove yourself rehabilitated))

Speeding fee or speeding tax or speeding fine is kind of a matter of semantics. Some people would view it exactly that way. I knew a doctor who got three speeding tickets in one month and thus had to go traffic school, which he viewed as ridicilously stupid stuff. He had nothing but contempt for the entire thing, tickets, class, all of it. So I guess you and I shall continue to disagree.

Thanks for the discussion.

I guess we disagree on terminology but don't actually disagree in practice. I think that punishment is okay only so far as fines are punishment, while you think that fines are not punishment, but that fines are okay and punishment is not. Basically the same thing. :)