> There's a reason I still am skeptical of calling client-side devs "actual programmers".

Nothing in your comment actually supports this last jab at web developers. Can you elaborate? I imagine you can't because you're arrogantly posturing.

Programming is, fundamentally, the imposition of a chosen order upon the world. You can easily distinguish somebody who's new to programming by the lack of choosing or the lack of effective order, and I think it quite fair to call them "not yet a programmer" while they're in that phase.

Sure, theoretically web devs can be programmers. But in practice, choice is overwhelmed by happenstance, and/or order does not follow from the choice that is made. And this isn't just on random websites (after all, 90% of everything is crap), but even for core tooling.

This is a vague statement filled with poetic language that conveys very little useful information. I can't imagine trying to parse this as a non-native English speaker and extract any sort of meaningful information from this comment.

Okay, by example then:

* if you just bash on the keyboard randomly until you get a result, or just copy-paste from StackOverflow, or just let an LLVM spew something, that's not programming - there's no choice.

* if you do deliberately choose something, but your choice fails to produce a meaningful result, that's not programming - there's no order.

Ok...and how exactly does this invalidate client side programming?

> * if you just bash on the keyboard randomly until you get a result, or just copy-paste from StackOverflow, or just let an LLVM spew something, that's not programming - there's no choice.

To add a more substantive example to the conversation: do you really think the developer of Photopea built an entire Photoshop clone in the browser by mashing keys on his keyboard randomly? You think there was no choice in the development of a project like that?

> * if you do deliberately choose something, but your choice fails to produce a meaningful result, that's not programming - there's no order.

Do you think the client side developers behind something like Google Docs have failed to "produce a meaningful result"?

You've come up with an interesting set of criteria, but you have nothing to apply it to. That's why your original comment was flagged, and referred to as posturing.