That's an extremely strong statement. It's the kind of thing someone firmly ensconced in a bubble would say. Is what you say true, or do you just lack the imagination or empathy to think of one?
All this says is: "What you are saying could or could not be true."
Why write so much to say so little?
If you think they're "ensconced in a bubble", say it. If you think they "lack ... imagination" or empathy", then say it.
Don't do this motte and bailey stuff of: "have you considered that you sounds like someone who's wrong?"
You didn't understand what I was attempting, and proceeded project some other intention onto me.
> Don't do this motte and bailey stuff of: "have you considered that you sounds like someone who's wrong?"
Your paraphrase is a misreading.
You shouldn't lecture people about how they should say things when you can only speculate without much basis about what they're actually trying to do.
>That's an extremely strong statement. It's the kind of thing someone firmly ensconced in a bubble would say. Is what you say true, or do you just lack the imagination or empathy to think of one?
was trying to do, and this comment hasn't really made it any clearer. Can you explain it explicitly?
You would have to be "firmly ensconced in a bubble" to think you have the right to force a women to carry their rapists baby. Or to even think you have the right to tell a women what to do with her body in the first place.
You know, there are a lot of pro-life women. Do you think they have those beliefs because they hate themselves? Abortion is a complicated issue, it's only "really simple" if you ignore a bunch of stuff and/or fill your head with slogans.
You'd be on firmer ground if you said something along the lines of "there is no valid pro-life position [for me]."
Yes I do think they hate themselves, or at least hate their sex, their world or their (nonexistent) God. It is intrinsic to the rights of women to do what they want to do with their own body. I accept that a anti-abortion woman does not want to have an abortion herself. I accept that a pro-abortion woman does want an abortion.
Its a complicated issue only to the parties involved. Lets not make it more complicated by taking away autonomy.
I think there is a deep clash of worldviews here. Some people view individual autonomy, and especially bodily autonomy, as among the most cherished and sacred of values – an absolute which should never be compromised. Other people, while they don't view individual autonomy as worthless, they don't put it as high in their hierarchy of values, so they are open to the idea that sometimes it has to give way to other values, and can rightfully be limited if necessary to protect something else of great importance. There are both women and men on both sides of this worldview divide. And there is something to be said for trying to understand the viewpoint of people with very different values from your own – a message both sides of that divide would do well to heed.
* Oppress women * Don't oppress women
This is the paradox of tolerance. You cannot negotiate with a monster who wants to force their views on people, especially those around forced birthing, you know, against the Helsinki Agreement on Human Right among others. There is no benevolent religion or philosophy that requires forcing a person to do something with their body.
I don't have pro or anti views. I just have a single view that you can do whatever you fucking like with your own body, and nobody can tell you that you can or cant. Anything else is fucking monstrous and will not be tolerated.
So, is your position that 77% of American women – including the 42% who support limited abortion restrictions – "hate themselves, or at least hate their sex"? Maybe, rather than they hating themselves, it is you who hate them?
[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/06/americas-abo...
Basically you are asking for a tyranny of a majority. It just doesn't matter what you, 1% or 40% or 99% of people believe -- they are free to believe and do whatever they want with their own bodies. They cannot dictate beliefs and behaviors for others. Its just a simple thing. Autonomy.
I think religion has poisoned many minds. Any belief structure that requires forcing a viewpoint onto others is unacceptable.
I do believe all access all the time to whomever wants it, yes. There only one view that matters: A women has the right to decide what happens to her body. Anything else has no place on this planet.
Go oppress someone else.
There is only one hateful position -- that you have the right to force your beliefs on others bodies. I do not share this position.
What is not granted is the ability to force another to take on those views. I am not forcing you have have a particular belief structure, but you are making an argument that because a group of people have some pretty crazy ideas we all must be beholden to it. When you want to force an ideology -- and my position is not an ideology, it is an anti-ideology at best.
I posit that forcing women to give birth to babies against their consent is a grave human rights violation and cannot be tolerated in a modern civilized society. It is the same logic of the paradox of tolerance that we cannot permit those to push a their hateful agenda against others, for they will push their ignorance and hate so loud that rights vanish quickly.
77% of American women support some degree of abortion restrictions – although a majority of them only support limited restrictions. What do you mean to say that all those women have "pretty crazy ideas"? How are they "forcing" an ideology on anyone by acting politically in accordance with their own beliefs–any more than anyone else doing the same thing is doing?