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Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by pmoriarty on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:18AM (#27663029)
"even if that means feces and human despair littering the streets and parks"

The solution is not criminalizing these people but giving them more support.

More bathrooms, not more prisoners.

Safe, clean places for addicts to use drugs, and ensuring that the drugs they get are pure and clearly labeled as to their dosage, which is the best way to minimize unintentional overdoses.

A stronger social safety net so that no one has to be homeless ever again.

More and better mental health services for everyone.

A diversion of wealth and resources from who have way more than enough for themselves and their families to those who have nothing.

That's what we should be doing, not imprisoning more people and ruining more lives.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by e67f70028a46fba on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:01PM (#27663580)
None of that will make any difference. What will work is strong families and traditional morality.

That is unacceptable and therefore things will continue to get worse.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by procgen on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:11PM (#27663721)
What is "traditional morality"?
Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by JohnTHaller on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:36PM (#27664071)
their morality
Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by slumdev on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:00PM (#27665227)
Literally any framework of moral reasoning.

"Do what thou wilt" is not an ethical framework.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by slumdev on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:07PM (#27663669)
It's pretty clear at this point that harm reduction policies are failing worldwide and that only the lessons learned at a higher stage of moral development will get us out of this mess. Relationship-focused consequentialist thinking leads to this downward spiral.
Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by pmoriarty on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:33PM (#27664834)
"harm reduction policies are failing worldwide"

Except that the biggest harm reduction policy of them all, ending the War on Drugs, hasn't yet been tried.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by slumdev on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:50PM (#27665093)
Users are not prosecuted in a huge number of jurisdictions already, so you must mean making the chemicals themselves legal to produce and sell.

Selling Fentanyl over the counter at Walgreens isn't going to get people off the streets.

It's going to put a lot more people on the streets.

This idea is DOA. Just laughably out of touch with the reality of addiction.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by pmoriarty on Monday June 28, 2021 @03:02PM (#27666232)
> Users are not prosecuted in a huge number of jurisdictions already

Here [1] are some stats from just a week ago from oh-so-liberal New York City:

"Police in New York City continued to arrest and issue summons to thousands of people over simple marijuana possession in the first quarter of 2021--which ended on the same day the governor signed a cannabis legalization bill into law.

Data from the New York City Police Department (NYPD) released late last week showed that police made 163 arrests and handed out 3,687 summons for marijuana possession in the city's final quarter of prohibition. And as has long been the trend both locally and nationally, those enforcement actions disproportionately impacted people of color.

Of the 3,687 possession-related summons issued from January through the end of March, for example, 2,374 were issued to Black people, 1,089 were for Hispanic people and just 102 were for white people. When it comes to arrests, 78 targeted Black people, 70 involved Hispanic people and just six white people were arrested for cannabis.

That's despite the fact that rates of consumption are comparable across those races.

Put another way, Black and Hispanic people accounted for 94 percent of the total marijuana summonses and 91 percent of cannabis arrests in New York City last quarter--a rate that is greatly disproportionate to the racial makeup of the city's population."

And here [2] is Forbes reporting that "An estimated 40,000 people today are incarcerated for marijuana offenses".

That's not to mention all of the other schedule one drugs, which (unlike cannabis) are not legal almost anywhere in the US, and people are still getting arrested for them.

In addition lots of jobs still require passing drug tests, which I would consider persecution.

It completely doesn't matter to me whether the people persecuted or prosecuted are dealers or users. If their only crime is possession they should be free, because drug laws are unjust.

> so you must mean making the chemicals themselves legal to produce and sell.

I do, but not without regulation. Safety regulation and good manufacturing processes overseen by the FDA like every other medicine would save infinitely more lives than the War on Drugs ever did.

"Selling Fentanyl over the counter at Walgreens isn't going to get people off the streets."

Neither is the War on Drugs. That's been an abominable failure.

The real solution for getting people off the streets is to address the causes that they're on the streets for in the first place, which isn't drugs but the miserable environment they grew up in, their broken home lives (where many people's parents are in prison due to a racist, unjust legal system), lack of mental health care or a social safety net, and lack of opportunities and discrimination in their adult lives.

People aren't on the streets because they prefer it to living in a safe suburb with a home of their own. They're there because their life sucks, and they're shooting up because their life sucks. There's a hole in these people's lives which is not going to be filled by sending them to jail and further ruining their and their family's lives.

You could argue that it's not society's job to fill that hole, but it's exactly that thinking which has gotten us the cold-blooded society we're suffering through now.

Finally, I'll say that I am for full cognitive liberty among adults. It is your own business and no one else's what you feel, what you think, and what your mind state is, and no means of achieving your desired state of mind should be restricted unless it harms someone else, which using neither cannabis nor Fentanyl nor any other drug does.

[1] - https://filtermag.org/nypd-marijuana-arrests-black-hispanic-...

[2] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanoleck/2020/06/26/with-40000...

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by slumdev on Monday June 28, 2021 @04:24PM (#27667531)
Marijuana users aren't littering San Francisco with used needles and feces.

You are intentionally muddying the waters.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 28, 2021 @10:34AM (#27662512)
Tolerating homelessness and the tent cities and open air drug use which victimize nothing but the eyes and noses of the uptight need not be analogous with tolerating rampant car break-ins, package theft and other petty "crime with a victim". Furthermore, the "real crime" that greatly reduces quality of life is not necessarily committed by the people shooting up on the sidewalk.

Enforce laws against theft.

Enforce laws against public indecency and disorderly conduct.

Enforce laws which will have the most positive impact on everyone's quality of life.

People being homeless isn't the problem. People being allowed to get away with all these other behaviors that reduce quality of life for everyone else is the problem.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by merpnderp on Monday June 28, 2021 @10:44AM (#27662649)
You may think it isn't a crime to shit in public, and stand in the middle of the street moaning and pissing yourself because you are so high you are mostly catatonic.

So I hope you and people like you never move to where I live.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by pmoriarty on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:41AM (#27663323)
"You may think it isn't a crime to shit in public, and stand in the middle of the street moaning and pissing yourself because you are so high you are mostly catatonic."

You think these people prefer to shit in public?

Lots of them are sick (mentally and physically) and drugs and alcohol can make one lose control of one's bowels or bladder.

When you have to go you have to go, and there are very few public toilets in SF, and many businesses just won't let homeless people or people who look poor use their bathrooms, especially not in places where there's a large homeless population, like the Tenderloin.

So where are these people supposed to go?

If SF residents really wanted to do something effective about all the shit and piss in the streets they'd build many, many more public bathrooms and lift people out of poverty. But they don't.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by merpnderp on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @08:59AM (#27687931)
"You think these people prefer to shit in public?"

Yes I do. Shitting in a plastic bag is available to everyone. Peeing in privacy behind a dumpster is available to everyone. Taking any half assed steps towards public hygiene is available to everyone. I've seen a homeless drug addict stick the water fountain bubbler into his bunghole while he was washing his ass with it.

The same reason they aren't shitting into bags and throwing them in the trash, or peeing into storm drains, is the same reason they're homeless - addiction makes people into sociopaths.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 28, 2021 @10:57AM (#27662805)
People using everywhere as their bathroom certainly decreases quality of life for everyone else but it's not even a blip on the radar when you lose a couple packages a month and your car gets broken into once a year.

Solve the most impactful problems first.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by josephcsible on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:00AM (#27662844)
Isn't a lot of the stolen stuff being fenced to pay for drugs? If so, aren't they really just two parts of the same problem?
Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:06AM (#27662901)
In other parts of the country junkies take day gigs. Installing roofing and screeding concrete are two of the stereotypical ones.

Obviously stealing cats or being a porch pirate is a better ROI with the side benefit that you get to be your own boss. But junkies don't do these things to anywhere near the same extent in other parts of the country because they can't get away with them to the same extent. Addiction is a powerful motivator. If stealing stuff to get your fix is likely to result in withdrawal in a holding cell people will find the next best way to get their fix.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by pmoriarty on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:25AM (#27663119)
Drugs should not be so expensive that people should have to steal to afford them. Their prices could be massively lowered if they were legal, since the cost to produce them is almost negligible.

People with severe mental health issues have trouble holding down jobs, so I'd be very surprised if the people the original article talks about who are running around screaming at invisible demons could manage to work installing roofing or doing anything else.

These people need help, not prisons.

Re:San Francisco residents are fed up with city inaction on ... by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:42AM (#27663339)
If you're too far gone to get a day gig you're usually also too far gone to have the industriousness required to cause real problems for society. If you're screaming at demons on the sidewalk you also aren't breaking into stuff. The people who have made a regular income stream out of victimizing people are higher functioning than that. They're just regular old tweakers picking the best option available to them. The former needs mental health care. The latter needs their best option to be something that doesn't victimize other people (whether you use a carrot or stick to achieve that matters not).