News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
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Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by pjkundert on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:30AM (#25777485)
Not to provide facts to counter your generalizations, but...

I was on Parler for several months, trawling it and other sources quite heavily for the last month or so, trying to keep abreast of ... events.

At no time did I see even a single post advocating violent overthrow of the government, white supremacy, etc. Apparently, neither did any of those planning the Capital attack, since they were not Parler members.

So, if you want to deplatform people based on their political leanings, I guess you can go ahead and do that. But, the "reasons" being used to shut down Parler don't seem to be founded in fact.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by dastbe on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:50AM (#25777771)
> At no time did I see even a single post advocating violent overthrow of the government, white supremacy, etc. Apparently, neither did any of those planning the Capital attack, since they were not Parler members.

how do you reconcile this opinion with the reporting that uses gps data from the parler data dump to place parler users at the protest and in the capitol building?

https://gizmodo.com/parler-users-breached-deep-inside-u-s-ca...

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by sojournerc on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:00AM (#25777924)
Ok - those were likely Facebook users also, maybe on Twitter, maybe they used Gmail.

Guilt by association is something we should avoid. It looks an awful lot like a witch hunt.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by x86_64Ubuntu on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:04PM (#25778888)
Once again, none of those other services listed exist for the rhetoric leading to the 6th.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by sojournerc on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:09PM (#25778976)
From my perspective, it's pretty disingenuous to argue that was the sole purpose of Parler.

Anecdata from HNers in this thread suggests otherwise, and unless you can show evidence that all 4 million users conspired to storm the Capitol building, there's not much of a leg to stand on there.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by analyte123 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:29AM (#25778300)
According to the article "at least several" out of 2+ million active users were in the Capitol. If this is the standard to upload, we would have to ban every social media app ever made.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by dastbe on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:20PM (#25779969)
I'm not trying to argue the Parler ban or at what percentage does it transition from people caused this to the platform caused this. What I am arguing against is the out-and-out misinformation campaign that zero people who used parler were involved in the capitol insurrection. Everyone has access to the receipts.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by pjkundert on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:55AM (#25777848)
Parler users wandering around the Capital sucking on their soda pops are different than those wanted by the FBI for breaching the building...
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by dragonwriter on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:11PM (#25779003)
> Parler users wandering around the Capital sucking on their soda pops are different than those wanted by the FBI for breaching the building…

No, assuming that they exist at all (which seems unlikely given the nature of the incident: peaceful people interested in just “wandering around…sucking on their soda pops” don’t tend to casually hang around riots involving violent clashes with the police, use of chemical irritants on both sides, gunfire, etc.) they aren’t, except to the extent that some of the former may not have been identified yet and moved into the latter category.

Anyone who illegally entered the building and is identified is being charged.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by dastbe on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:00AM (#25777927)
1. Do you earnestly believe the people around the Capitol were "sucking on their soda pops" during a large protest? As someone whose been around several protests in Seattle, there's an overwhelmingly small number of people that close who are not directly involved.

2. The gps data shows them being inside the Capitol building.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by darkcha0s on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:52AM (#25777793)
https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/13/22228675/amazon-parler-ta...

Just some examples of those non-existent violent posts

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ThrowItAway2Day on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:23AM (#25778227)
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by posixplz on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:27AM (#25778271)
Why bother providing an anecdote like this when we have mountains of empirical evidence about the content on Parler? And that evidence directly counters your assertion.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by pjkundert on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:31PM (#25779278)
The claims are that Parler’s primary purpose was to accommodate evildoers, but it only takes a single counter example to invalidate such a broad claim.

My example and personal experience does so.

Producing a bunch of bad posts that they had not yet deleted also doesn’t prove the claim.

Just as the never-deleted “Trump severed head” picture doesn’t prove evil intent by Twitter, et.al.

Perhaps they just hadn’t gotten to them all. Perhaps their user-driven moderation scheme didn’t scale.

I’m getting fairly tired of being impugned by generalizations; I personally didn’t join Parler to plan evil; I just didn’t want to be on a site where everyone seemed to hate me.

So, I am a counter-example that invalidates the wildly general claim.

That is all.

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Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by jwond on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:54AM (#25777824)
There also exist plenty of screenshots of Twitter and Facebook posts advocating violence and racial supremacy.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by jf22 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:33AM (#25778368)
Of course. I was just pointing out that it's easy to expand your knowledge beyond first hand experience.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by pjkundert on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:53AM (#25777812)
Of course they are.

They are easy to find for every platform.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by fsociety on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:48AM (#25778607)
It’s doublespeak to say “I saw no calls for violence when I was on platform” and then to say “of course there was calls for violence on the platform, they are on every platform”.

Which is it? Facebook optimizes for engagement.. Parler optimizes for free speech.

Why did Parler optimize for free speech? Is it because some of the members were being banned from the other platforms for extremism?

Did Parler gain network effect because of those certain members moving over to the platform?

You have to think deeper about the whys here.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by pjkundert on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:24PM (#25779186)
I’m certain they existed; I just didn’t see any, in a month or so of very active trawling of Parler.

So, in my experience, Parler’s primary purpose was unlikely the planning of evil.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by beervirus on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:00AM (#25777045)
That's not really true. Parler existed to be twitter without censorship. That's a worthy goal, even if it (predictably) attracted some unsavory elements too.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by rangoon626 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:46AM (#25776869)
How do you reconcile the whole “if you don’t like Facebook moderation go build your own” bit.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by greesil on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:54AM (#25776970)
You can still do it. Get your own server in a colo that's owned by someone friendly to your political viewpoint. Keep some spares in a closet for when the feds inevitably come when someone uses your unmoderated platform to plan crimes.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ttt0 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:59AM (#25777035)
> Get your own server in a colo that's owned by someone friendly to your political viewpoint.

...until someone up in the food chain will either shut that down too or force them to disassociate with you.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/25/21532883/paypal-cuts-tie...

> Keep some spares in a closet for when the feds inevitably come when someone uses your unmoderated platform to plan crimes.

Section 230.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ramphastidae on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:04AM (#25777095)
This is the free market at work. PayPal has a well known track record of canceling service to direct customers as well as business partners for arbitrary reasons. This is a major risk but companies too lazy or incompetent to build decent payments just slap on PayPal and everyone suffers. But businesses knowingly do it anyway. Well, this is the consequence.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by SV_BubbleTime on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:39AM (#25778466)
> This is the free market at work.

It is not. The “free market argument” does not account for entrenched monopolies who buy up - or shut down -competitors long before they can become threats.

Anti-trust laws, which have absolutely no teeth since the 80s (and every then...), are not incompatible with free market capitalism.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by x86_64Ubuntu on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:01PM (#25778836)
>...Anti-trust laws, which have absolutely no teeth since the 80s (and every then...), are not incompatible with free market capitalism.

That's the first time I've ever heard that. Generally, libertarians will state that the existence of monopolies is an outcome of government intervention.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ralusek on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:40PM (#25779396)
This is a strawman of free market advocates. SOME monopolies are the outcomes of government intervention.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:01PM (#25779706)
That only works if companies are perfectly spherical cows, and the market is frictionless vacuum at 0K. In real world, monopolies are an attractor in the free market system.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by rangoon626 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:07AM (#25777131)
I think most people don’t understand that the regime will define and redefine what hate speech is, over time.

It’s those icky conservatives now, but the same mechanism will be used against more people tomorrow, as needed.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ttt0 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:34AM (#25777541)
Well, Merriam-Webster dictionary changed the definition of "sexual preference" to justify the outrage against Amy Coney Barrett after the fact. You probably can't get any more Orwellian than this. I guess something about free markets and private companies though.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by nitrogen on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:32AM (#25778356)
Do you have a link to a diff?
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by names_are_hard on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:58PM (#25779641)
I hadn't heard about this before, so I did a search. It seems from this Newsweek article that the dictionary is not denying that they made this change, but implying that it was planned for the future and then they did it earlier than planned because of the public attention it was being given.

https://www.newsweek.com/amy-coney-barrett-preference-defini...

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ttt0 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:47AM (#25778583)
As usual, no one bothered to properly archive it and people took screenshots instead. So unfortunately, neither archive.today nor wayback machine has it and the last capture before that was in 2016. But even Snopes confirms it, if you don't want to take my word for it.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by nitrogen on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:56PM (#25779619)
Snopes link for the curious: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/merriam-webster-barrett-se...

Is there a regularly updated official list somewhere of newly-considered-offensive words so one can proactively update one's vocabulary?

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by ttt0 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:54PM (#25780519)
Other than regularly following Twitter drama or joining some Discord echo chamber, I honestly don't think there is any reliable way to know what is now considered offensive and what is not. The reason why All Lives Matter is considered racist is literally based on some obscure web comic about burning houses from years ago and everyone will get angry at you if you don't understand what the hell are they even talking about. Oh and by the way, silence == violence, so it's not like staying apolitical will help you much.

https://static.attn.com/sites/default/files/allhousesmatter....

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by Fellshard on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:32AM (#25777514)
No one considers systematic consequences of rules and laws, these days. Everything is short-term pragmatic cynicism.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by greesil on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:25AM (#25777398)
Well, this debate has never happened before.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by sandworm101 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:50AM (#25776922)
If you build your own thing then it will be subject to the moderation of whatever service you build it upon. In this case, hosting services and app stores. If you don't like their moderation either, you are free to setup your own bare metal servers, even your own app store.

And then there is Tor. If you really want to live outside of any moderation, outside of even basic laws, then setup a Tor hidden service. If you aren't going to put in some basic effort to protect yourself (ie what ThePirateBay does every day) and instead run strait to the courts, then I have little sympathy.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by rangoon626 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:09AM (#25777150)
Must have missed the part where Apple allows developers to set up their own app stores.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by sandworm101 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:24PM (#25779192)
Apple doesn't block websites. If they cared to keep Apple users from being blocked they could have implemented a purely web-based option for accessing the service.
Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by rangoon626 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:11PM (#25779842)
They don’t block websites yet.

The browser makers will find a way to make it happen if they need to.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by wolco5 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:08AM (#25777143)
vk did it. The profile/photo/video piece is fairly enough to duplicate. The app /games platform not so much.

Vk is very popular and has scaled well.

Re:Facebook Incubated the Insurrection by Layke1123 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:51AM (#25776932)
Does Facebook use AWS servers with TOC? Thats how. Parler is free to build it. With their own servers and own physical network if they want to. The fact that they can't is the market in action no?