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Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by chongli on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:16AM (#25506989)
The US is a culture that has been repeating things like 'winning isn't everything, it is the only thing'

A large proportion of the students we've caught cheating in our course (I'm a full-time assistant for a first-year CS course) are international students. This is a global phenomenon, not a US-specific one.

Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by csharptwdec19 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:44AM (#25507351)
I don't know if it is a fully global phenomenon, but it is certainly not a US-Centric one.

For every politician who is in the news for 'bragging' about not paying taxes, there's usually at least one politician finger-wagging at them that avoids taxes to the same extent, but is just 'quiet' about it.

People who are decrying cheating while cheating themselves are a far larger problem; when someone boasts they don't pay taxes, everyone else can point at them and go 'what an asshole!'. But when people discover someone doesn't pay taxes, yet goes after those who are public about not doing so, -that- is when the idea that 'everybody cheats'. becomes cemented.

Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by marktangotango on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @12:45PM (#25508981)
What is "cheating" exactly though? Isn't that also culturally specific? Like why shouldn't the collective benefit from the work of a few, if the few are willing? That was certainly the attitude of students of many different cultures when I was in college. Many called sharing work "cheating" I'm certain they saw it as "stupid not too" and "helping their countrymen".
Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by kaitai on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:41PM (#25510247)
As other commenters have pointed out, it's generally defined in the first days of the course.

Speaking from my former job as "professor", the problem with cheating is that students are not benefitting from the work of others. They think they are, because they think the product of the class is a grade. But I taught math. This point of view is only successful if one can maintain the cheating throughout all classes and then one's job, which is an awful lot of work and in fact even harder than just learning the d(*& math.

From my point of view, I tried to use psychology to "trick" students into learning when they were inclined to cheat -- making the process of iteration into something worth points (you don't show me an imperfect MVP and then improve it? you don't get points), making acknowledgement of collaboration and outside sources into something worth points, etc. I also provided old copies of all my exams going back several years, some with answers, because I wanted all students to have an equal playing field. Last, I always included a question or two very similar to/identical to a question on a previous exam or homework. You might think this is just bad teaching, but it was actually a quite useful tool: since I telegraphed it beforehand, students actually studied the old tests/homework, thereby accidentally learning something, and then when a surprising number of students did terribly on something word-by-word from a previous test, we got to talk about effective learning techniques.

Cheating is relatively predictable in character. Use the impulses and mechanisms gently against reluctant students to trick them into learning despite themselves. It's way more fun than the alternative.

Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by leetcrew on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @01:21PM (#25509383)
I can pretty much guarantee you that any CS department will have a clearly worded policy on what they consider "cheating", usually any sharing of code whatsoever on a take-home assignment. of course, you will likely see that policy blatantly violated every day in the computer lab.
Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by jcranmer on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @01:52PM (#25509743)
s/CS//

In my university experience, the first day of every class starts with administrivia, which includes the grading policy, homework policy, and what degree of cooperation actually constitutes cheating. In CS, the usual threshold for cheating is whether or not you actually wrote the code yourself--you can (and are encouraged to!) work with other people to discuss how to solve the problem, but you have to sit down and actually write the code up yourself.

That said, as a TA, I found that I really didn't want to put any effort to identify if students were cheating. I did catch a few cheaters, but largely because they inadvertently broke my grading setup in ways that made me suspicious that they were getting their code from something other than the homework assignment.

Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by chongli on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:40PM (#25511595)
In our course (first year intro CS), we run a tool called moss against thousands of submissions (it's a big class). Inevitably, we catch a few dozen cheaters on every assignment. Some of them are so brazen as to submit their friend's assignment as though it were their own, without even changing the name at the top of the file!
Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by leetcrew on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:18PM (#25510003)
I also found a few likely cheaters in my stint as a TA. they sat together in labs and turned in nearly identical code for every assignment (down to some truly bizarre formatting choices). I didn't have the heart to turn them in since they were failing most of the assignments anyway.
Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by cgriswald on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:39PM (#25510226)
Some cheaters make it impossible not to catch them. We had a guy using his phone during a math class. The professor came by and the kid had covered up his phone with a piece of paper. The phone is obviously not flat and the screen was up and still active, shining right through.
Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by sudosysgen on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @12:57PM (#25509118)
I'd wager a big part of it is that they don't think it's cheating and don't bother to hide it. If you're looking for the percentage of first year CS students that cheat in some way or another I'd say around 30-40%, anecdotally, purely among non-international students.
Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by reaperducer on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @03:07PM (#25510570)
Are those really the only messages you've gotten from American culture? You must live in some strange bubble.

For every person boasting about greed and "winning," there are tens or hundreds more talking about peace, love, charity, and helping others. It's in TV sitcoms, it's in books, web sites, music, it's everywhere. Have you tuned it out?

Re:Parents demand academic publisher drop Proctorio surveill... by walleeee on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:55AM (#25507521)
I'm not sure American cultural messaging is so monolithic. Some is like that, but plenty of people argue something like the reverse (e.g., parents infantilizing their children, participation awards).