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Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by marcusverus on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:13PM (#25472119)
> An enormous number of Americans have been persuaded to believe that they are freer in the abstract than, say, Germans or Danes precisely because they possess far fewer freedoms in the concrete. They are far more vulnerable to medical and financial crisis, far more likely to receive inadequate health coverage, far more prone to irreparable insolvency, far more unprotected against predatory creditors, far more subject to income inequality, and so forth.

For a comment that adopts a rather condescending tone, it's odd that it displays such a lack of understanding of some basic truths. When Americans speak about their rights, they are generally speaking of negative rights, i.e. the natural rights of man which cannot be infringed upon by their government. The "freedoms" referred to above are exclusively positive rights, so named because they require positive action--in other words, these "Freedoms" are imposed by the state. Europeans who are compelled by the state to cough up half of their incomes to the state are free to refer to the resulting programs as "freedom", but this is a new formulation of freedom that has no basis in the historical meaning of freedom to which most Americans adhere.

> while effectively paying more in tax (when one figures in federal, state, local, and sales taxes, and then compounds those by all the expenditures that in this country, as almost nowhere else, their taxes do not cover).

This is nonsense. The taxation rate in the us is far lower than those in Democratic Socialist countries, while incomes are ~40% higher after accounting for healthcare costs.

Taxation by country: [0]

Denmark - 52% of GDP

Norway - 55% of GDP

Finland - 53% of GDP

Sweden - 50% of GDP

Iceland - 42% of GDP

>>Average - 50.5%

USA - 22% of GDP

-----

OECD data shows that Median American income is 40% higher than the oft-hailed bastions of Social Democracy:

Household Income in US dollars (2018) [3]

Denmark - $34,712

Norway - $39,555

Finland - $34,497

Sweden - $34,301

Iceland - Not reported

USA - $50,292

-----

Household Debt as % of disposable income (2015-2018): [1]

Denmark - 281%

Norway - 239%

Finland - 145%

Sweden - 189%

Iceland - Not reported

USA - 105%

-----

Household Net worth as % of net income (2014): [2]

Denmark - 553%

Norway - 318%

Finland - 359%

Sweden - 526%

Iceland - Not reported

USA - 601%

-----

[1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

[2]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-...

[3]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#in...

Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by JoeAltmaier on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:32PM (#25470940)
That's just ranting on a theme. Americans value personal liberty (e.g. taxes, property, travel) while other value security (medical and financial).

So what? Which is 'freer'? That quote has made its socialist leanings obvious - government should care for us all.

And 'no substantial civic benefits'? Where does that come from? Water, power, highways, the mightiest cities on earth. Sure there are problems. But its nowhere justified in bashing American freedoms as 'not really free'. That's just 'No True Scotsman' at work?

Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by skrtskrt on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:43PM (#25471048)
You frame it as a preference that the average person has agency over - we Americans have chosen the ability maybe one day own property over medical and financial security because that's what we value!

We have massive physical land space, resources, and control our own currency. We spend over $800 billion a year on our military alone. We can demand more, but we have been trained not to.

Water, power, highways - all built when the government had the appetite for massive civic projects, and the top income tax rate was >70%. Now in varying states of disrepair, and cost more than ever to maintain as everything is contracted out to private entities.

There is no chance we would get the interstate highway system or the Tennessee Valley Authority if we needed to build it today. But we would not ask for it today, we would just supply endless excuses why it would be too much to ask.

Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by HarryHirsch on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:51PM (#25471126)
government should care for us all

Maybe it's too idealistic, but supposedly the power of the government originates from the people, so it's not asking too much that the government should serve the people.

Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by JoeAltmaier on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:19PM (#25471405)
Sure, but how? That's been the question for 250 years.
Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by jancsika on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:16PM (#25471378)
> So what?

It all hinges on whether you're willing to bet that the ranter is wrong about American's lack of knowledge about their history, the history of other nations/movements, etc.

If ranter is correct, then any mental snapshot you have of a "freer" America is extremely fragile and probably transient. Unless of course you want to be the contrarian who argues that awareness of history is somehow not part of "eternal vigilance."

If you want to argue that Americans' lack of historical knowledge is largely a myth and have some references about that, let's have the links. Hell, I'd certainly enjoy a December pick-me-up! :)

Re:Justin Amash Introduces Bill to End Civil Asset Forfeitur... by JoeAltmaier on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:21PM (#25471423)
Quoting historical figures is one way to maintain freedom. The other is, a culture of resistance to infringement on personal liberty. Which America has in spades.