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Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by tremon on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:13PM (#24655048)
I too am from the left-liberal side of things, and I am always flummoxed when I see people on HN immediately generalizing every misstep they see to all developers, and only to developers. Why should developers be holier than the average population?

But as for question, yes, we do say those things here. But I'm from the European mainland, and we do enjoy stereotyping each other. That has nothing to do with racism or bigotry, but with acknowledging and celebrating differences. I'm reminded of a comic that I came across around the time of the introduction of the Euro, and I saved it because I thoroughly enjoyed it: https://imgur.com/a/SmdkRLZ

So please, do not assume malice whenever someone points out cultural differences. Humor can be a connecting force, not just a dividing one.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by car10s on Thursday October 01, 2020 @04:26PM (#24655823)
This is great, I just don't know why sometimes in the US everything is taken in the wrong way and everything has to be politically correct. We can make fun of ourselves there is nothing wrong and the more we accept the differences the easier will be to move on. And before anybody assumes I'm a white male, I'm a Mexican immigrant in the US.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by jmnicolas on Thursday October 01, 2020 @04:02PM (#24655576)
Gosh I didn't expect to start anything more than a few smiles with this comment. I'm French, this is absolutely normal to say that where I'm from, and I can tell you that no German or Italian woman / man would take offense for what I said (angry Twitter mobs don't count ;)

I can't speak for Japanese people since I never met any.

I don't know if your reaction is representative of US culture, but having to tip toe around words and not say what you think doesn't scream free country to me.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by ColanR on Thursday October 01, 2020 @05:36PM (#24656378)
> having to tip toe around words and not say what you think doesn't scream free country to me

Being from the US, and not being part of the vocal minority that reacts like this, I will agree with you that the last few years have increased the sense that we aren't really free to say things that deviate from the 'approved opinion'.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by benrbray on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:31PM (#24654500)
I came here to say I agree. To me this sort of language is unacceptable because it sorts humanity into convenient little boxes with supposedly predictable input/output behavior. In the workplace or in social settings, it can have the effect of completely alienating people.

Unfortunately, at least in American culture, many of these stereotypes about what it "means" to be Japanese / German / Italian or what it means to have the role of "girlfriend" or "wife" or "husband" are reinforced in us from an early age. Wives are supposed to be controlling and manipulative. Men are expected to be stoic breadwinners and utterly incompetent when it comes to household duties like cooking or child-rearing.

For example, look at any show produced by Disney Channel in the 2000s -- it's all about petty relationship drama and manufactured conflict where characters overreact rather than having tough conversations. Technically the shows are trying to give examples of bad behavior, as there is usually a lesson learned in the last ~30s of the episode, but the characters seem to reset to their usual, horrible selves by the next week's episode.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by brnt on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:26PM (#24655193)
I think these things are contextual. But I'll agree regardless that perhaps these are not the most sophisticated jokes in any case.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by ulucs on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:47PM (#24654689)
Dear Americans, please stop imposing your anti-joke culture into us. Neither the Japanese nor the German nor the Italians need you to save them. Thanks.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by jlokier on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:23PM (#24655158)
> Do devs really say horrible things like this at the workplace?

Workplaces vary a lot.

In some, yes people do. This sort of thing and much stronger stuff is circulated in company-wide "joke" emails too. However there does tend to be an element of self-deprecation, in that you'll get people circulating jokes about inept women, and also jokes about inept men. Rarely in the same email of course.

In others, you'd be fired after a few repeats, as you say.

With Europe, as someone commented, some of these things can be understood in a slightly more humorous way if it's about other "friendly" European cultures, because some of the cultures are quite friendly with each other. They're not at war, so it's intended (and really meant and to some extent understood) in a more playful way. There's plenty of it, including on magazine covers.

Between England and France there's been culture jokes for a long time; I've always imagined that's a healthy modern echo of more serious hostility from a long time ago.

Similar to the way you'll see black music groups using the N word affectionately, and it's not offensive because of who is using it.

But for example even in Europe, if someone in say Germany started making ambiguous joke/not-joke jokes about modern fascists in Hungary, I don't think it would be regarded as just friendly humour for long because it touches a nerve. And when I lived in France I heard people talk about Serbians as though they are "all" quite unpleasant. So the European cultures aren't all friendly with each other. There's history there, and some kind of inter-cultural meme evolution.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by Digit-Al on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:20PM (#24654355)
Lighten up. A friend of mine has an Italian partner and she is constantly joking that Italian women are mad and that she'll kill him if he does something wrong.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by dTal on Thursday October 01, 2020 @06:40PM (#24656925)
I wonder if accuracy in a stereotype makes it better, or worse, from a PC perspective. I do think it's important to recognize cultural differences, and that making a joke out of it in public where it can be responded to is probably a healthier way of approaching the subject that forbidding all mention in polite discourse.

Speaking from personal experience, the stereotype about Italian girlfriends is not inaccurate.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by aaroninsf on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:33PM (#24654508)
Let it not go unobserved that "lighten up" is the traditional rejoinder of those engaging in inappropriate behavior.

This formulation means: those in a position of relative social power, expect those in subordinate positions to accept stereotyping etc. at the expense of their own and other subordinate classes.

The humor, and this rejection of censure, is done to ritually encode and underscoring of the received power hierarchy.

In a world in which such rituals are being openly named, and confronted, it is very common for those called out to feel defensive, and act out of that defensiveness.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by Digit-Al on Saturday October 03, 2020 @04:41AM (#24670557)
As a mixed race "person of colour" (not a term I'm massively keen on) I'm not generally considered to be "in a position of relative social power", especially over a white European. But whatever.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by Mediterraneo10 on Thursday October 01, 2020 @04:07PM (#24655622)
Japan, one of the world’s wealthiest nations and a successful exporter of soft power for decades now, is a “subordinate class”?
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by nix23 on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:29PM (#24654461)
>either they would be fired or I would quit

Wow your a hell of a wannabe Whiteknight...at least fight him/her, but you will lose if it's a Italian women, but you win if it's an Italian man....especially if he plays soccer.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by rathel on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:29PM (#24654463)
Oh no, someone jokingly acknowledged that cultural differences exist. How horrible of them.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by dutchmartin on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:28PM (#24654451)
It depends on culture. HN has a lot of different nationalities writing comments. Cultures differ. Like i as a Dutch person can openly disagree on things my boss or other people say, but in other parts of the world this may not be the norm. Also note that some comments may be misplaced because of non native english speakers posting here.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by burkaman on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:30PM (#24654478)
Hopefully it stands out because of the fact that most people don't say shit like this? I don't know, I've only ever heard a sales dude say anything like this, and he was fired pretty soon after for harassing people.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by Mediterraneo10 on Thursday October 01, 2020 @04:12PM (#24655670)
Are we going to cancel François Truffaut now? The “Japanese girlfriend” is a key part of his film Domicile conjugal, and once a stereotype has made it into canonic art, then how offensive can reiterating it be? The exception of course is when the stereotype deals with a population that is neglected, persecuted and impoverished, but it is hard to say that about Japan.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by ColanR on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:19PM (#24654349)
When I read it, the comment sounded like the emphasis was on stereotypes of the culture, not the gender. Maybe you're reading too much into it.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by chki on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:25PM (#24654415)
>the comment sounded like the emphasis was on stereotypes of the culture

To be honest, that is also pretty weird, wandering into "wrong"-territory. At least if you are prescribing negative stereotypes to a culture.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by ojnabieoot on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:27PM (#24654442)
To be clear: comments about "polite" Japanese versus "strict" Germans and "angry" Italians are also bigoted and will make many immigrant coworkers deeply uncomfortable (especially if they are women). Everything about his comment is gross and 100% inappropriate for the workplace, and civilized society in general.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by sz4kerto on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:34PM (#24654526)
"obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices."

(Definition of bigoted from Wikipedia)

Stereotypes can be harmful, but they oftentimes are based in reality. Yes, the formalities of an average Japanese are almost incomprehensible to an average Italian. What's the problem with that? The world is fortunately colorful, and making jokes about its colorfulness is not necessarily evil.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by ColanR on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:55PM (#24654795)
> comments about "polite" Japanese versus "strict" Germans and "angry" Italians are also bigoted

As the other commenter mentioned, "bigoted" implies "intolerant". A joke about culture differences isn't intolerant of those cultures; you're just overreacting.

And as someone else mentioned, the Japanese, Germans and Italians do not want or need you to save them. Maybe you should dial it back a bit.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by pseudalopex on Thursday October 01, 2020 @08:05PM (#24657479)
I know a German who hates being stereotyped. He likes when other people speak up about it because people call him a typically humorless German when he does.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by cassianoleal on Thursday October 01, 2020 @07:11PM (#24657146)
I'm Brazilian and live in the UK.

I constantly hear jokes about football. Having played football and being a person with "two left feet", I have heard numerous jokes about that, and about how I must not be Brazilian, since I don't command the ball like Ronaldinho.

I'm fine with that. It's playful. It's fun. I make jokes back and everybody is a friend.

There's also the Samba jokes and stereotypes. They are fun. They are ice breakers and can make an awkward social interaction more fluent.

You know what offends me? When people from the USA call their country "America", like they own the whole continent.

Amerigo Vespucci, the man whose name served as the basis for naming the so called "new world", didn't even arrive in the northern part of the continent, much less in what is now the USA.

Cripstopher Columbus, who arrived in the continent even before Vespucci, didn't arrive there either, but at Guanahani, in the Bahamas.

When America was named America, there was no USA.

Calling that country America is the equivalent of uniting a few European countries, calling them United States of Europe and then culturally pressuring the rest of the continent (and the world) into calling them Europe, pretending the rest of the continent never had that name.

The cultural, military, pollitical and economical power play that the USA have been imposing on the rest of the continent since at least the 1940s is by far worse than any stereotype joke that you might have heard in your workplace.

I was born in America. The USA can never take that away from me.

Uncivilised is to impose your views upon the rest of the world with zero regard to cultural differences.

As my late grandfather would say: "don't judge others as though they are yourself."

Edit: Even before I posted, I was aware this was going to be downvoted. That's fine. It's not easy to admit you're not as holy as you might think. It's far easier to use your own power to crush the "subordinate class" rather than actually acknowledge them. Downvote away. I will still be an American, born in America.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by speeder on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:15PM (#24655069)
As an italian-descent that wants to move to Japan and lives in a town full of german immigrants...

I have no clue what on the world you are talking about.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by fantod on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:49PM (#24654704)
Have you actually met a person from Europe? They play on stereotypes constantly.
Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by jlokier on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:14PM (#24655056)
> They play on stereotypes constantly.

Above is true. But below is also true:

> make many immigrant coworkers deeply uncomfortable (especially if they are women)

You can also add gay people, trans, etc - and even things like being smart, or stupid, or being a man or woman, or blond or redhead or... etc - to the list who have to endure feeling uncomfortable and unwelcome (and often keeping it to themselves or playing along) in a workplace where "they" are made fun of regularly.

I think it's because humour and oppression both exist, and actual for real consequences of the latter have been very severe and sometimes still are. It's hard to tell how much of each is really in process at any moment, so of course it's uncomfortable, and of course if someone feels they have to fit in to keep in their colleague's good books at work, they'll tend to keep their discomfort and background to themselves.

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by skissane on Thursday October 01, 2020 @05:30PM (#24656329)
I wonder about cultural differences here. Ethnic/national jokes used to be very common in the workplace, but in the last few decades have become increasingly taboo. However, I don't think that change has happened to the same extent in all countries. I think in English-speaking countries (and especially so in North America) it has happened to a much greater extent than in many non-English speaking countries. To assume that all workplaces globally adopt the standards of your workplace, or workplaces in your country, is itself a failure to be aware of cultural diversity.

One thing about these kind of jokes, is they vary a lot in how much prejudice they encode. For example, there is a stereotype in Australian culture of the "whingeing pom", the person from England who always complains, and there is a tradition of jokes based on that stereotype. Does that mean the English are oppressed in Australia, or that Australians hate English people? Or is it more like when you gently tease your friends and family? (To use an Americanism, "joshing"). It is not like the English recipients of this kind of teasing don't have plenty of comebacks – jokes about Australians being all descended from criminals, etc. (See also [1].) I think there is a big difference between those kinds of gentle jokes which don't really encode any significant degree of racial/ethnic prejudice, and other sorts of jokes that do – it depends a lot on who is making the joke, which group is the target, and the nature and history of the relationship between the joke-teller's group and the target group.

Regardless of all that, I wouldn't tell those kinds of jokes in a work environment – some people are likely to be offended, and causing offence isn't worth it. (Plus I rarely tell jokes of any sort, since telling jokes has never been my strong suit). But if other workplaces, in other countries, have different cultures in which those kinds of jokes are more acceptable, I'm not going to judge those cultures negatively because of it, and try to exhibit enough cultural sensitivity to realise that cultures like that exist, and I'm not going to say that my culture is superior to theirs.

(You also mentioned the gendered aspect of the jokes; I would expect that attitudes towards gendered jokes and how they are experienced also vary from culture to culture – and that women experience them differently in different cultures, and even individual women may experience them differently in the same culture – but I don't feel like I know enough about that whole issue to say more than that.)

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/08/what-b...

Re:Suicide Linux (2009) by aaroninsf on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:25PM (#24654414)
Seconded.

Speaking for myself, I understand that no harm was meant; and that those my age grew up in a world in which such humor was not commonly judged offensive.

This world has moved on fortunately. Please do not perpetuate this culture on HN.