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Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by opnitro on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:08PM (#19059223)
Reporting is always biased. There's a limited number of stories you can investigate, and someone has to make that choice. "What deserves resources/attention" is one of the fundamental political questions.
Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by standardUser on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:44PM (#19059877)
"News is supposed to be objective."

News should strive for objectivity. But all news organizations need to make decisions. What do they include or omit from a story? What do they think is necessary to explain versus what the audience will already know? How do you present complex issues without veering into technical jargon most readers can't understand? Which photo and headline do they choose to go with the story?

These are subjective decisions all journalists and editors need to make.

Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by Pharmakon on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:21PM (#19059329)
The dangerous nonsense is pointing selectively at what you dislike and claiming they’re biased, while ignoring that everything in the space is biased. Saying that reporting is “biased” is like saying that water is wet. The issue isn’t bias, the issue is undisclosed bias, bias so strong that it leads the story rather than the other way around, bias that leads to lies, and so on. Simply crying “bias” is the definition of a shallow dismissal.

“Bias” as a generalized complaint is effectively a straw man to beat up when debating the actual facts would be untenable, or make you looks like an asshole. If you think that isn’t obvious, think again.

Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by eropple on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:27PM (#19059374)
Yeah, you've got it. Your post reminds me of Sam Harris falling all over himself to hold up Charles Murray's racist-ass "research" as some kind of unimpeachable thing--mostly because Murray, as a crank, would talk to Harris, because Murray, as a crank, will talk to anyone who will listen--but demanded of anyone who would dispute Murray the third degree in an gish-gallopingly exhaustive manner.

Which is why it's usually the high-handed rationalist, the claimant of no bias, who is trying to sell you a pig in a poke. They either don't know it's just /r/iamverysmart stuff or don't care, but they're selling you something. Not the reporter with a story on their hands who admits to having an opinion.

Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by rhcom2 on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:12PM (#19059252)
Reporters are people. All people have inescapable biases. It is naive to assume there is some easy way to be "objective".
Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by a_tractor on Friday February 01, 2019 @08:10PM (#19060296)
I don't think anybody is saying there is an easy way to be objective. Objectivity being difficult to achieve is still a far cry from impossible, not an excuse, and nothing new. Since ancient Greece, philosophers have been devoted to building logical processes and ethics in order to make it more possible to get close to the objective truth, such as the Aristotelian processes of observation, abstraction, definition, induction, syllogism, the definition of archai (first principles), etc.. Objective truth has always been elusive, but its pursuit is something that historically has allowed civilization to advance (especially true for western civilization).

Now we are hearing excuses (including in this thread) which are nothing more than cheap cop-outs, they are rationalizing their own acquiescence or surrender to intellectual laziness, logical fallacy, ignorance, and social irresponsibility. The fact is this lowering of standards is very useful for some people, and provides wiggle room to dishonest liars and frauds who would otherwise not be trusted, should be obvious.

Yes, one's senses are limited, one's knowledge is limited, and while investigating a story you are likely going to hear different versions from every witness to whom you speak. But what do you say to those who refuse to listen to contradicting yet valid information and/or viewpoints?

There is a large gap between those who are engaged in the pursuit of objective truth who nonetheless fail, and those who have their excuses loaded up while they tirelessly work to build consensus around what has become a narrative for a completely false reality. We are starting to see a bias against objective truth, a prevalence of defense mechanisms against logic and reason, and more and more demands for "allegiance" or "belief" in a given agenda-based narrative.

With more differing points of view intermingling than ever before, giving in to bias has never been more dangerous.

tldr: Just because its hard doesn't mean its not an important pursuit, much less take it as an excuse to accept the defeat of lowered standards or actual fraud for our perception of reality.

Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by bscphil on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:05PM (#19060958)
I think your point here is right on. We're seeing this thread devolve into a war between two opposing perspectives: either (a) "real" news organizations are objective and better sources than Huffington Post or Buzzfeed, or (b) all sources are biased and the other side just doesn't want to recognize that.

This seems like a false dichotomy to me. Surely there will always be some bias, and it will affect all the editorial decisions made by an organization and change the way topics are reported by journalists. However, just because bias can't be entirely eliminated, doesn't mean that there aren't objective standards of what constitutes minimally fair reporting. There are such standards; clearly discussing and defending these standards is an important goal.

It's for this reason that we can say that Reuters is a better, more objective source of news than the Huffington Post. And the latter is a better, more objective source of news than Breitbart. We can take such a position, and encourage others to seek out sources like Reuters, without taking the extreme position that Reuters is this fully unbiased magical source of objective news. Of course it isn't, but it doesn't have to be.

Re:McClatchy Follows BuzzFeed, Vice, and Others in Cutting S... by eropple on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:13PM (#19059260)
> This is dangerous nonsense and I think it is a travesty that such an opinion has been effectively normalized. News is supposed to be objective.

Bovine excrement and worse words. It is not an opinion that has been normalized. It is an acknowledgement of reality, of the lack of objective observers in any field not directly measurable with a pair of calipers--and it is a reality that people of certain epistemic closures wish to attack because that reality threatens those epistemic closures and the goals they wish to achieve with them.

Usually venal goals. But I digress.

So yeah, it's worse than not nonsense, at least for your argument: it's history. It's reality. News is not and has not ever been objective at any point you will name. Setting aside any reporting at all? At the absolute minimum, the most trusted names in news at any point in mass media have been selective in what they reported through that mass media apparatus and that is itself bias. Meanwhile? You have people the "unbiased news!" folks want to point at, like Walter Cronkite, who directly formed Americans' opinion on the Vietnam War by declaring it a "stalemate". No "unbiased news" would say that; they'd just say "well, this is happening". But to not characterize the state of the conflict would itself mislead those consuming that news. "Unbiased news" is the box score and nothing more and it's a superficial and broken way of viewing the world.

Meat robots get by on the box score. Thinking creatures require context and no context will ever, ever be unbiased. Analysis--filtering, concluding, fact-checking--is part of news. And it cannot be separated from an attention economy either personal or societal.

I'm sorry that that upsets you so, but only a little.