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Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by jbooth on Sunday July 25, 2010 @09:29PM (#1546807)
Let's straighten this out -- I can't stand when people start complaining about "government". It's like complaining about "private enterprise" or "computers" -- yeah everything sucks sometimes but you need to be specific.

Here, we have 2 reasons that Paterson and the New York State Assembly/Senate got involved:

1) There is a legitimate public health concern with running unlicensed hotels -- subletting your 2 bedroom for a couple months is one thing, renting places in order to run a business out of them while circumventing health regs that are there for good reason is something entirely different. They were seeing a shift to the latter.

2) Simultaneously, hotels have money, have lobbyists, didn't like this and had a great argument to make with public health. The senator in question can keep the donations flowing while all the while claiming he's only concerned about the public welfare.

So, some mixture of that is what happened. Notice how none of it involved Glenn Beck's nightmare socialist conspiring to reduce "freedom" and expand "government" in order to, you know, piss off Glenn Beck or whatever motivates all of those socialists. When you unpack political reality, it turns out to be a lot less about "government vs private sector" and a lot more a combination of who has the money (usually one aspect of the private sector).

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Empact on Sunday July 25, 2010 @09:34PM (#1546820)
Would you support a ban on couchsurfing? Maybe you'd be deterred by our right to peaceably assemble. Is paying for access really so different?

Edit: as noted below, the implied question is: what "legimate health concerns" exist for short-term renting but not couchsurfing?

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by jbooth on Sunday July 25, 2010 @09:59PM (#1546875)
Of course not, that's different from running an unlicensed hotel. I'm saying we wound up with a law that could apply to both because some people were running unlicensed hotels and other people with money and lobbyists stood to lose money. Either by itself might not have been big enough for a law change, both together are.

I thought it would be instructive for people who talk about "government" as if just putting the word big in front of it solves the issue, and the solution is cut taxes for rich people. None of that has anything to do with this. This is a concrete policy change in a specific area.

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Empact on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:46PM (#1546967)
You're not addressing my question: What "legitimate public health concerns" are different for couchsurfing vs a person renting out their apt while on holiday?
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by alain94040 on Monday July 26, 2010 @12:44AM (#1547165)
There actually is a difference (although I'm not taking sides in that debate):

If you allow people to not be present at all, then some will turn this into a business and operate a real hotel room, 365 days a year. Operated like a cheap hotel. I can see why the government may want to regulate that.

An easy way to distinguish the above situation from legitimate friends staying over, is to ask for the owner to be present. Or couchsurfing. That tends to make it a more casual and better controlled environment. I can understand why the government may want to stay out of this.

My impression is that the real criteria should be how much the room is rented: if you have guests 300 days a year, you should be regulated. If it's 10 days, leave me alone. The problem is that it's probably hard to define, and may impose its own set of requirements (such as, everyone would have to keep a registry of all visitors, just to prove that they don't fall into the hotel category).

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by jbooth on Sunday July 25, 2010 @11:52PM (#1547086)
You need to un-ask your question. I already stated my opinion on renting out an apt on holiday, in the comment you originally responded to, and it's totally irrelevant to the point I'm making about how legislation happens as well as the larger point about people running a hotel out of their apartment.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by mhd on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:19PM (#1546912)
ad absurdum, meet slippery slope.

I don't think this is a totally absurdly black and white case, it's no oppressive regime rearing its ugly head. Both sides have ulterior motives (AirBnB and the established hotels), but their arguments aren't totally without merit. And one thing that people keep forgetting, is that this law isn't breaking new grounds, both renting and hotels are pretty heavily regulated, mostly for a good reason. Yes, for the hard-core magical hand of the market libertarians this is another nail in the coffin, but I bet that a lot of people that get too angry in this discussion don't have problems with laws against arbitrary landlord decisions or hotel health and emergency codes.

Let's keep this reasonable…

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by ac132 on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:29PM (#1546940)
"both renting and hotels are pretty heavily regulated, mostly for a good reason."

Says who and what are those reasons? I suspect the reasons are: old people got scared and stakeholders saw an opportunity.

Luckily the Internet is mostly protected from scared old people and powerful stakeholders.

Maybe in another decade when we're all older we will be willing to give up the freedoms we once enjoyed when the Internet was still young. And it will be for "mostly good reasons."

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by mhd on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:41PM (#1546952)
Wow, an "old people" conspiracy. Haven't heard that since my high school days. Trust no one over 30…

Remember the old silent movies, where the evil, mustachioed landlord was one the most popular villainous archetypes? That wasn't without reason. People looking for a roof over their heads often aren't in a good bargaining position, so often you could make them sign almost any contract. There are quite a few federal and local laws that limit what's possible in all these cases, so that your landlord e.g. can't evict you all willy-nilly. Rent control is also rather common.

Same goes for hotels, especially when it comes to security (emergency exits, maximum occupancy etc.).

Whether every single law (including this new once) make sense is another question, but my point is that this isn't something completely new, were all of a sudden the octogenarians ruling the world decided to come down on the poor cyber-startups.

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Locke1689 on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:16PM (#1546910)
OK right now I have a little trouble taking your position seriously because you have seriously misinterpreted the Constitution. The full quote that you were looking for would be: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What that doesn't mean is freedom to gather with a bunch of friends where and whenever you want. What it does mean is the legal right to stage peaceful protests or gather in public (with reasonable restrictions).

If needed I can run over to the library and grab you a list of cases on that, but I think you'll have trouble finding any for "couchsurfing."

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Empact on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:43PM (#1546957)
What distinguishes "peaceable assembly" from meeting with a bunch of your friends? Some of the most important assemblies were antislavery meetings in barns, where meeting in public might mean suicide - does it say "peaceably assemble in public"? The prohibition is against government interference in all "peaceable assemblies" which is to say, all peaceful meetings. There are limitations, of course (eg I generally can't assemble in the street), but what reasonable restrictions intrude into the home? You do your name-sake disservice.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by parfe on Sunday July 25, 2010 @09:26PM (#1546800)
I rent an apartment on a 1 year lease. I expect my neighbors to live under the same situation as that forces a social contract. I don't fuck their lives up so they don't fuck mine up.

What does a vacationing transient care about pissing in the hallway? He'll be gone in 8 hours. AirBNB ignores the reality that apartments are part of shared property. That shared property maintains its state of repair thanks to people from the building having large stakes in making sure they don't leave human feces in the stairwell.

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by nostromo on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:01PM (#1546879)
Almost all apartment leases have stipulations about excessive guests and required behavior. I don't see in your comment justification on why this required YET ANOTHER LAW and not just common sense and enforced contracts.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by parfe on Sunday July 25, 2010 @11:39PM (#1547057)
This law only bans absentee rentals. If the owner is not present what keeps the renter in sync with the other families living in the building?
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by nostromo on Monday July 26, 2010 @01:53AM (#1547268)
The neighbors. The existing laws. The lease.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by dman on Sunday July 25, 2010 @09:49PM (#1546855)
Totally agree with you - different countries / places have different norms on what is considered socially acceptable. So visitors can often have different expectations on what is considered late hours, what is being loud and how okay it is to dispose off trash in public places. Even ruling out bad behavior on part of the guests, they could be making a scene without knowing about it.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Empact on Sunday July 25, 2010 @09:29PM (#1546809)
For perspective: the risks from riding a motorcycle are almost certainly greater than that of renting an apt short term. Should we ban motorcycles?
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by mhd on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:30PM (#1546942)
False dichotomy. Just as the law doesn't totally ban people staying in apartments that they don't rent, it doesn't seem necessary to totally ban motorcycles. Motorcycle helmet legislation, while rather lenient in the US, still deals with this specific security risk. (And no, I don't think this is a particular infringement of personal liberties, considering the medical costs that often have to be born by the tax payer, never mind the trauma for other participants in the accident)
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Encosia on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:15PM (#1546906)
A motorcycle's risk is almost entirely concentrated on the occupant(s), not its neighbors. That isn't a good comparison with transients imposing on resident neighbors.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by Empact on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:55PM (#1546974)
If this solves for neighbor complaints, why not craft the legislation to be triggered on a neighbors complaint, rather than make all hosts criminals, responsible or no?
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by sorbus on Sunday July 25, 2010 @11:29PM (#1547033)
How about a car, then? If you mess up, you are quite likely to kill lots of other people, while causing little damage to yourself (my world-view supports the idea that causing inconvenience to people in a house which you are a guest in is akin to driving on the sidewalk, and that being polite, pleasant, and quiet is similar to driving in the street; yours may not). Still not a good comparison, of course.

(EDIT begins): The above paragraph is not only "not a good comparison," but a really bad comparison which entirely misses the point and argues against the below paragraphs (as jbooth's comment succinctly points out). It's only still here because I don't like deleting text I've posted; I still support most of it (especially it being common courtesy not to cause discomfort to your hosts, regardless of any regulations or laws regulating behavior), even though the basic idea is horrible. You should disregard it, and focus on the paragraphs below. (EDIT ends)

However, if you are going to get up in arms about the potential for noisy guests, and require legislation to prevent it in some way, it makes far more sense, to me, to empower apartment owners to kick out anyone who sublets an apartment to noisy guests, and allow legal recourse for the people in surrounding apartments if this does not occur. A system of incentives would thus be created for people renting out a spare room to make sure to educate their visitors about the behavioral standards they are expected to follow, and to enforce these standards. This would create greater freedom for everyone, and the owner of the building has the option of stipulating that short-term sub-letting is not permitted in whatever contract they have with their renters.

The problem of actual unlicensed hotels - a set of rooms lived in by no one but short-term renters - is entirely different, and is the problem which should be removed by legislation. It's also the problem which many of the people who are against AirBnB and similar sites are thinking of; there is a world of difference between a group of tourists given free reign in an apartment and one or two tourists renting a bedroom from someone who is living in and present in the apartment. This difference is perhaps why so many of the people who have tried such services are in favor of it; they have been in the latter situation, which seemed quite pleasant to them and which was completely preferable to hotels (all of the stories I've heard of users of such services describe this situation). The people who are angry about it (outside of the hotel industry) without actually coming into contact with it (short-term renting of the adjacent apartment, with whatever results) are thinking of the first situation.

Or at least, that seems to be the case, from reading many of the comments on this article. It's quite likely that I'm misunderstanding something, of course.

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by parfe on Monday July 26, 2010 @12:58AM (#1547180)
The problem of actual unlicensed hotels - a set of rooms lived in by no one but short-term renters - is entirely different, and is the problem which should be removed by legislation. It's also the problem which many of the people who are against AirBnB and similar sites are thinking of; there is a world of difference between a group of tourists given free reign in an apartment and one or two tourists renting a bedroom from someone who is living in and present in the apartment. This difference is perhaps why so many of the people who have tried such services are in favor of it; they have been in the latter situation, which seemed quite pleasant to them and which was completely preferable to hotels (all of the stories I've heard of users of such services describe this situation). The people who are angry about it (outside of the hotel industry) without actually coming into contact with it (short-term renting of the adjacent apartment, with whatever results) are thinking of the first situation.

Dear god I read your entire post only to realize you entirely agree with the legislation that was just passed only you have no idea what the new law means.

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by sorbus on Monday July 26, 2010 @12:22PM (#1548412)
Really? My understanding was that it includes an exception for situations where the owner of the apartment is present, but forbids the exchange of money in that situation (which allows couchsurfing, but outlaws actually renting a room). At least, I think that that's the bit you're thinking of when you say that I have no idea what the new law means. Admittedly, I haven't actually read the legislation; what I know is mostly from the comments here and the various articles on it (which have tended to have a quite obvious agenda, from one side of the other), so it's entirely possible that I am entirely misunderstanding what its purpose is.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by parfe on Monday July 26, 2010 @01:19PM (#1548608)
You can rent rooms, as long as you are present.

You can let someone crash at your house if you're away, but you cannot charge.

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by sorbus on Tuesday July 27, 2010 @01:53AM (#1550362)
Ah. My understanding was that the "not charging" bit also applied to renting rooms while present. Which, if you're right about it not applying, means that I entirely agree with the law and don't see why there's so much fuss about it. Thank you for clarifying.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by jbooth on Sunday July 25, 2010 @11:54PM (#1547091)
It turns out, actually, that there's a very large body of regulation regarding cars, and you have to be licensed and provide proof of insurance in order to drive them.
Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by sorbus on Monday July 26, 2010 @12:34AM (#1547152)
I did say that it wasn't a good comparison; however, thank you for clarifying exactly how horrible it was. How about moving on to the other paragraphs?

(Also: previous comment edited to incorporate exactly how terrible the comparison was. It was really more of a jumping-off point for the rest of my musings ...)

Re:Sorry AirBnB Hipsters, I’ll Take Health and Safety Over t... by orangecat on Sunday July 25, 2010 @10:12PM (#1546900)
If motorcycles were invented today there's no way they'd be permitted on public roads.